Ok...CHL or other pistol classes

[mikemenzie]

So. I know how to use a firearm, aim one, and hit a target. I can field strip most things if you give me a minute with ones i've never handled - but even then, i know better than to fiddle without cause, and will ask if possible. I don't aim uprange. Etc.

But there's always more I can learn, firearm specific, handling, etc. And especially with state and federal laws. There is a lot of confusion out there.

My mother and I are both planning to get CHLs for Oregon, possibly Washington, Utah, Arizona. I know we can do the online thing for $10, which is a waste of $10. I figure If i'm spending money, I ought to learn something, so -

Anyone have reliable information about classes in the Salem, Keizer, Dallas, Independence areas?

I don't relish the idea of $300 to get a few hours class time. Don't want to spend $50 and spend the day at the range hootin' and hollerin' and throwing lead downrange. I want to spend the least I can (of course), but get a decent solid learning experience, with hopefully some actual firearm instruction, even if dry and no range time.
Found one that looked promising, but the guy's in Bend or somewhere abouts, and only comes as close as Albany or so - in July.

I was going to take my mother to these classes as a birthday present, so hoping to find something decent before the end of June.

Thanks, all.

-Mike​

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[Joe13]

Mike,

Sounds like your rather proficient with a gun and have common sense.

ALL of the CCW classes I've taken have been sorely lacking in real knowledge. They will flat out tell you that they are not lawyers and to fact check on your own or consult a lawyer.

They let you thing like don't shoot someone in the back etc. You could probably learn more by watching YouTube vids.

Most classes just do the bare minimum to qualify you to get your license. But your mom may glean quite a bit if she is newish to guns.

My recommendation would be to go thru a basic class with your mom and then sign up for an advanced pistol class either alone or with her if she is up too it.

I don't have a good recommendation for you though unfortunately.

If your an OR resident and get your Utah license then that gives you your WA permit so don't waste the money on it.

 

[sandman1212]

Mike,

Sounds like your rather proficient with a gun and have common sense.

ALL of the CCW classes I've taken have been sorely lacking in real knowledge. They will flat out tell you that they are not lawyers and to fact check on your own or consult a lawyer.

They let you thing like don't shoot someone in the back etc. You could probably learn more by watching YouTube vids.

Most classes just do the bare minimum to qualify you to get your license. But your mom may glean quite a bit if she is newish to guns.

My recommendation would be to go thru a basic class with your mom and then sign up for an advanced pistol class either alone or with her if she is up too it.

I don't have a good recommendation for you though unfortunately.

If your an OR resident and get your Utah license then that gives you your WA permit so don't waste the money on it.

I have to agree with Joe! This coming from an NRA certified instructor. I have seen many classes, and the best one I have seen, even after putting in everything required. If you have done any program that includes pistol safety (civilian marksmanship program, compitition etc) you dont have to go through a class, as long as you can prove that you have done the course. This only applies to Oregon though. if you follow up with the Utah and AZ CCL, you will have to have that states program. I have a good instructors info that does 1 class that covers all three states, and does a great job covering the material...start a convo if you want the information.

 

[PiratePast40]

CHL class is not about basic firearms. If you want to learn about firearms, then take a basic firearms class. If you want to learn about self defense, then take a self defense class. If you want to get proficient, then take some lessons and get out and practice. If you want to fulfill the legal requirements for getting your CHL, then take the CHL class. Don't expect one class to cover topics in all others.

Albany Rifle and Pistol Club ARPC - Home (https://www.arpc.info/) has classes for various topics and they're open to non members.

There are those that feel strongly about spending a full day on handgun basics, marksmanship, gun safety, and how to handle yourself while under arrest or in a courtroom. You can certainly go that route if that's what you want.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but that's not what's required by the government to exercise your second amendment rights. Don't worry, we'll be discussing this ad nauseum next spring when the bills are introduced in the legislature.

 

[etrain16]

I would recommend the Basic Firearm Safety course at Oregon Firearms Academy in Brownsville - about an hour from Salem. I've been there for a couple of courses - they are professional, safe, and provide very good instruction.

The course is $125 plus ammo (50 rounds) you'll need for the shooting portion. It's a full 8 hour course - 5 hours in the classroom, 3 hours on the range. The range portion will have some shooting, but the emphasis is on gun safety, how to safely handle, load and unload and basic marksmanship. You'll meet all the necessary requirements for your Oregon CHL, rather you'll exceed them.

Here is a link if you're interested: Oregon Firearms Academy LLC - Basic Handgun Safety (http://www.oregonfirearmsacademy.com/courses/basic.htm)

Note - their courses tend to fill up months in advance, so you may have to wait a bit to get in, but I'd say it's worth the wait.

 

[mikemenzie]

If your an OR resident and get your Utah license then that gives you your WA permit so don't waste the money on it.

Wait - what? Looking at some of the websites for people offering classes, they offer all the nonsense needed to apply for OR and UT, or OR and UT and WA, but they were always separate things.

Are you saying UT CCW allows carry in WA, or that it covers the same states that WA does, in terms of who accepts UT and WA CCWs?

 

[mikemenzie]

CHL class is not about basic firearms. If you want to learn about firearms, then take a basic firearms class. If you want to learn about self defense, then take a self defense class. If you want to get proficient, then take some lessons and get out and practice. If you want to fulfill the legal requirements for getting your CHL, then take the CHL class. Don't expect one class to cover topics in all others.

Albany Rifle and Pistol Club ARPC - Home (https://www.arpc.info/) has classes for various topics and they're open to non members.

There are those that feel strongly about spending a full day on handgun basics, marksmanship, gun safety, and how to handle yourself while under arrest or in a courtroom. You can certainly go that route if that's what you want.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but that's not what's required by the government to exercise your second amendment rights. Don't worry, we'll be discussing this ad nauseum next spring when the bills are introduced in the legislature.

Attitudes like this are super frustrating sometimes, bud. I didn't ask about why we have to have pistol proficiency, by law, and all that.
I am an experienced shooter - but still a young man, and 'if old men have a lot to learn, then young men may have double.' As i said, I could easily take the $10 online lazy course if I wanted. My DD214 won't work. It doesn't specify pistols.

I want more firearm and firearm related education, because I think education is a good thing, in all aspects of life - but particularly in the aspects where things blow up, or move at high speeds.

"CHL is not about basic firearms" - ?
Granted, it seems that some of the courses aren't, if they're offered by money-grubbers eager to help shovel CHLs into the hands of any ol' gun totin' idiot.

But regardless of the law, a CHL class should make sure a carrier knows basic firearms, and then should be a basic firearm in regard to carry, class, which is what I was wanting.

I'm of the school of thought that I hope, when I get to be a curmudgeon, I want to support shooter education, WHILE I gripe and moan about the law, instead of sounding like i'm doing my best to convince someone not to get an education because it ain't required...

My recommendation would be to go thru a basic class with your mom and then sign up for an advanced pistol class either alone or with her if she is up too it.

Yeah...kinda what I was thinking. Might do a UT/AZ or wherever else class for requirement, and find the cheapest one around, do OR online for $10, then hope I get lucky and find good advanced courses to drag my momma to.


Thanks etrain16. I will look at them to see what all they offer.

Appreciate it, guys!

PiratePast40 - don't be so grumpy about the law, yet, haha. As you said, we will have more than enough time to gripe about it later, and I'll probably be gripin' right with ya. Mean time, relax, get out and throw some lead downrange, bud! Days are cooling back to normal temps! If you or anyone else wants to go on a short shootin' trip, let me know! Shootin' alone just ain't as much fun!

-Mike

 

[Joe13]

Wait - what? Looking at some of the websites for people offering classes, they offer all the nonsense needed to apply for OR and UT, or OR and UT and WA, but they were always separate things.

Are you saying UT CCW allows carry in WA, or that it covers the same states that WA does, in terms of who accepts UT and WA CCWs?

As a WA resident we still have to get our home state license as well as an OR and Utah to cover most the US.

As an OR resident, if you get your OR and Utah permit - WA accepts Utahs license so your good to go.

 

[Joe13]

Also, if you are available this Sat, there is a very cheap and lots of fun event at DDRC. They do .22 pistol and rifle speed shooting comps. Very family friendly and fun unless your so competitive that you will want to win - at which point, some of these kids are fast as lightning with those .22's.

 

[PiratePast40]

PiratePast40 - don't be so grumpy about the law, yet, haha. As you said, we will have more than enough time to gripe about it later, and I'll probably be gripin' right with ya. Mean time, relax, get out and throw some lead downrange, bud! Days are cooling back to normal temps! If you or anyone else wants to go on a short shootin' trip, let me know! Shootin' alone just ain't as much fun!

-Mike

So what's wrong with the courses at ARPC? Did you even look at them? If you go to the calendar and look at the sponsors of the courses, you can continue to research and see their specific course offerings.

I gave you examples of why a single course won't do what you're asking.

I happen to shoot regularly and can tell you for a fact that the skills fairy doesn't come in your sleep. You may be one of the few that has natural talent, but most of us seek out training, and require quite a bit of work to maintain proficiency.

The point is that a CHL course is not, and should never be designed to be a proficiency or skills course.

 

[Fordcragar]

You might check out the requirements for each state regarding their carry permit, what they want you to provide along with the application. Washington doesn't seem to have a class requirement; which was easy to get. I took a firearms safety class; which satisfied the requirements for Utah and Oregon, and said so in the description of the class.

 

[mikemenzie]

Also, if you are available this Sat, there is a very cheap and lots of fun event at DDRC. They do .22 pistol and rifle speed shooting comps. Very family friendly and fun unless your so competitive that you will want to win - at which point, some of these kids are fast as lightning with those .22's.

Oh, shoot! (Pun intended, of course). Family's going to the coast Saturday. Thanks for the heads up, though!

The point is that a CHL course is not, and should never be designed to be a proficiency or skills course.

See, i just don't get that. If you're not supposed to need skill or proficiency to carry concealed...what would be the point of a CHL "class"?
I think i may just be misunderstanding ya here, bud. If so, that's on me. I am going to check out ARPC, and i appreciate the info on them.

Random note - seems like it'd be a good idea to have a Northwest Firearms educational get together, now and again. An organized range shoot, or forest shoot. A few old timers with th knowledge and experience. NRA instructor members, etc. running the show, so to speak. Maybe a small fee per head for whoever wants to show up, and BYOB (bullets, not beer). Similar to a cleanup, but focused on educating those that need it, or maybe sectioned off for different levels of proficiency.
I'm sure all of ya'll have a quite a bit I could learn.

-Mike

 

[rick benjamin]

Hi Mike;

Glad you and your mom are thinking about CC.
A list of Oregon certified firearms instructors (pdf page 5)

I suggest taking an Oregon-Utah CC class.

Pass the Class
Apply for OR and UT CC
Read the books
Practice

James Holman (540 Tactical) teaches Oregon-Utah, includes a firing segment to meet Utah's requirements ($135+$50). I've taken his class and think highly of him.

Oregon Firearms Academy, Brownsville is also a top-notch place to train.

The laws are important to understand.
Buy and read
"In the gravest extreme" by Mas Ayoub
"Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws" by Kevin Starrett
"Law of Self-Defense" by Andrew Branca

I am attending Andrew Branca's "Law of Self-Defense" Seminar 13 August in Tualatin ($220)

Regards
Rick

 

[Joe13]

I've found one on one to be the best for me and the people I have taught.

Everyone has problems in different areas and it's much easier to identify what those issues are if you have someone watching you like a hawk.

If you weren't so dang far awayId take you to the range I go to and we could BS and shoot all day.

Some people I won't offer or take but if someone has the right attitude and isn't offensive or a mall GI Joe Then I personally enjoy helping with fundamentals.


Also, never dismiss empty gun dry firing your gun at home. Practice taking it in and out of your holster. Wear your gun in your house, to the John and in the back yard etc. You should know it inside and out and there are only so many bullets you can shoot each week - unless your very well off. Practice clearing your house at night etc - you must play with it to understand it.

If you need a safety on or do not carry with one in the chamber then you need to get more intimate with the gun.

CC'ing is mostly about common sense and understanding the laws where you are. YouTube and the Internet will get you a long way for free and faster then classes. Up to a point.

 

[mikemenzie]

Hi Mike;

Glad you and your mom are thinking about CC.
A list of Oregon certified firearms instructors (pdf page 5)

I suggest taking an Oregon-Utah CC class.

Pass the Class
Apply for OR and UT CC
Read the books
Practice

James Holman (540 Tactical) teaches Oregon-Utah, includes a firing segment to meet Utah's requirements ($135+$50). I've taken his class and think highly of him.

Oregon Firearms Academy, Brownsville is also a top-notch place to train.

The laws are important to understand.
Buy and read
"In the gravest extreme" by Mas Ayoub
"Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws" by Kevin Starrett
"Law of Self-Defense" by Andrew Branca

I am attending Andrew Branca's "Law of Self-Defense" Seminar 13 August in Tualatin ($220)

Regards
Rick

Wow, thanks for all the info, Rick! I'll look into some of those.

I've found one on one to be the best for me and the people I have taught.

Everyone has problems in different areas and it's much easier to identify what those issues are if you have someone watching you like a hawk.

If you weren't so dang far awayId take you to the range I go to and we could BS and shoot all day.

Some people I won't offer or take but if someone has the right attitude and isn't offensive or a mall GI Joe Then I personally enjoy helping with fundamentals.


Also, never dismiss empty gun dry firing your gun at home. Practice taking it in and out of your holster. Wear your gun in your house, to the John and in the back yard etc. You should know it inside and out and there are only so many bullets you can shoot each week - unless your very well off. Practice clearing your house at night etc - you must play with it to understand it.

If you need a safety on or do not carry with one in the chamber then you need to get more intimate with the gun.

CC'ing is mostly about common sense and understanding the laws where you are. YouTube and the Internet will get you a long way for free and faster then classes. Up to a point.

Thanks, Joe. Ya know, I might just make you regret that offer, haha. I've got a truck that gets good gas mileage, and plenty of room for all the necessary shooting accoutrements. I would definitely enjoy a one on one session. Well, two to one, I suppose. I like my mother to have the benefit of any training I get, and then I can work with her, off time, too. She has gotten so much better in the last year! We took my grandpa out to BLM nearby and fired away about 6 mags each with my 10/22 at a little slinner target at 50 yards with iron sights. She rocked both of us with a near perfect!

I do practice a bit dry, at home. Heck, I play with guns all the time. I'm a tiddly bit project obsessed, and been making a couple sets of revolver grips, and working on a holster. And when I have no purpose for playing with 'em, I just pick 'em up sometimes and marvel at the mechanical engineering in these things. Blows my mind when I think about the simplicity, but subtle genius inherent in these things. I'm a bit of a nerd, haha.

Shoot me a pm if ya want, Joe. Maybe we can work something up over the next couple weeks, for a bit of shooting a a bit of palaver.

-Mike

 

[mikemenzie]

So what's wrong with the courses at ARPC? Did you even look at them? If you go to the calendar and look at the sponsors of the courses, you can continue to research and see their specific course offerings.

I gave you examples of why a single course won't do what you're asking.

I happen to shoot regularly and can tell you for a fact that the skills fairy doesn't come in your sleep. You may be one of the few that has natural talent, but most of us seek out training, and require quite a bit of work to maintain proficiency.

The point is that a CHL course is not, and should never be designed to be a proficiency or skills course.

By the way, bud, i hope i didn't offend. If i did, that's on me, and i apologize. Didn't mean to be comin' off wrong, and i'd be happy to go out shootin' with you sometime, if you want. I'd challenge ya to a golfball shootin' contest with the .22, haha

-Mike

 

[Joe13]

Shoot me a pm if ya want, Joe. Maybe we can work something up over the next couple weeks, for a bi

PM sent

Balls in your court

 

[RicInOR]

@mikemenzie -- handgunlaw.us

They have an interactive map, which they keep up to date, on which permits do which for you.

Highly recommended to keep bookmarked.

 

[mikemenzie]

Oh! Strangely, that's one i haven't seen yet. Thanks, bud!

 

[Osarion]

I would recommend Massad Ayoob's video Judicious Use of Deadly Force. I learned a lot from it. Sadly it seems to have been taken down from YouTube. At least the one, full length video I watched.

There are others on YT, but not the full length one. I'd still suggest it though. Sounds like he teaches in this class part of what you want to learn. It won't teach you HOW to shoot, it teaches you when and why to shoot which is equally if not more important.

*edit*
wow it looks like a lot of his videos were taken down. Probably copyright issues. Shame!

*edit2*
http://www.amazon.com/Judicious-Deadly-Force-Massad-Ayoob/dp/0936279176
Suppose you can just buy it. I would say it's money well spent.
there's another video of his called the Aftermath, which is what to do and prepare for after a deadly force encounter. Can't find that either now