New Here, Let me introduce us.....

[Mark_Dorman]

Welcome!

Not to detract from S.A.F.E. as an organization or it's goals... which I fully support and believe are highly commendable... but I am curious about the statement on the main page:

"FIREARM ACCIDENTS ARE THE 3RD LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR CHILDREN IN THE STATE OF OREGON"

I'm curious what data sets that information is based on. IE. Incident types, ages groups, etc. The concern of course is validity of that type of claim. It may very well be true, but if manipulated toward sensationalism in an effort to drive participation in safety programs I wonder if, as a whole, it doesn't do more harm in fueling the anti-firearm sentiments in the state(?)

IE., "Prominent pro-2A child firearm safety organization in OR reports..." carries a lot of weight in public perception.

I'm familiar too with the practice of "wide lumping" vast numbers of causes into one general classification that is then only counted as "one" in the rankings in an effort to drive up the seeming significance and ranking of the chosen cause. Many times... those broad classifications making up the vast lions share of all deaths... and next ranking "causes" comprising only an incredibly small percentage of all deaths. By "ranking" in that way... the statements can be, technically, crafted to be true, but actual numbers of deaths is vastly far from any accuracy and the picture being painted.

I'm not saying that's what's going on here, but the "accidental firearms deaths" seems incredibly high... especially when it is also stated on the website that 3-4 children per day die from firearm accidents nationwide. Nationwide, more children per day die from accidental injuries, cancer/congenital defects, auto accidents, homicides, and malnutrition than the 3-4 per day to accidental firearm deaths stated.

That claim is only for Oregon though so, as far as I know, the true and fair data points do back that up. I would just like transparency in that claim.

The condition/caveat for that statistic is where "External/injury was the cause of death"


I forget the exact statistic, but suicide is by far the leading cause among firearm deaths. I remember in the safety class I took someone spoke about even those statistics being off because some are most likely chalked up to "accidental discharges" since they can't always prove it was suicide.

The leading causes of death in children under 18 years in Oregon is overwhelmingly "Perinatal Causes". But people don't like to talk about that for some reason. I actually have a good friend who advocates heavily for improvement in perinatal care as well as post partum care as the death rate is so high for a 1st world nation like ours.


Anyways, just thought that might help a bit.

@Kids_SAFE_Fdn Welcome to the forum!

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

The condition/caveat for that statistic is where "External/injury was the cause of death"
View attachment 1762887

I forget the exact statistic, but suicide is by far the leading cause among firearm deaths. I remember in the safety class I took someone spoke about even those statistics being off because some are most likely chalked up to "accidental discharges" since they can't always prove it was suicide.
View attachment 1762891
The leading causes of death in children under 18 years in Oregon is overwhelmingly "Perinatal Causes". But people don't like to talk about that for some reason. I actually have a good friend who advocates heavily for improvement in perinatal care as well as post partum care as the death rate is so high for a 1st world nation like ours.
View attachment 1762889

Anyways, just thought that might help a bit.

@Kids_SAFE_Fdn Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for the welcome. I can see that in my short time being here, this isn't a platform that I should utilize to help our situation. Have a great day!

 

[Yarome]

Lost me there.

Kids safe does an amazing job educating kids and parents on gun safety. This does a lot for future gun rights in more ways than just preventing accidents. Kids Safe has my full support.

If lost, read back to the "3rd leading cause" issue I was questioning... and asking for citation.

Don't get me wrong. As I previously stated.... I fully support firearm education and what they are doing. I fully agree with you.

I just don't support the tactic of data manipulation and/or propagating misinformation in an effort to sensationalize and/or elicit an emotional response. To put it bluntly... in my book that is simply lying for affect.

Losing credibility, even for a worthwhile cause, does more damage than good, IMO. Especially when those claims can and will be used to further infringe on Oregonians 2A rights.

If it's true then it's true, but seeing how ancillary data does not support that statement... I don't believe it's too much to ask to see the data used to reach their conclusion. Is it?

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

If lost, read back to the "3rd leading cause" issue I was questioning... and asking for citation.

Don't get me wrong. As I previously stated.... I fully support firearm education and what they are doing. I fully agree with you.

I just don't support the tactic of data manipulation and/or propagating misinformation in an effort to sensationalize and/or elicit an emotional response. To put it bluntly... in my book that is simply lying for affect.

Especially when those claims can and will be used to further infringe on Oregonians 2A rights.

If it's true then it's true, but seeing how ancillary data does not support that statement... I don't believe it's too much to ask to see the data used to reach that conclusion. Is it?

God bless you. I have had enough internet for the day. Thank you for the welcome.

 

[Koda]

I don't believe it's too much to ask to see the data used to reach that conclusion. Is it?

Lost me again because he cited the CDC data you asked for.

 

[Yarome]

Lost me again because he cited the CDC data you asked for.

"Teen suicide also can affect these statistics as well because of definitions coming from the CDC."

That is citing the the data and classification sets used in their conclusion? All I see there is that teen suicide may be included in their accidental child deaths in Oregon statistics due to changing definitions from the CDC. Or... how they are interpreting that to mean for inclusion? Where does the CDC define suicide as an accidental firearm death?

I think most people would agree that classifying intentional/willful suicide by firearm is not classified the same as little johnny picked up an unsecured firearm and accidently killed himself or another. Or am I wrong?

Which is why I asked the follow up question. Suicides are considered accidental firearm deaths?

For the purposes of firearm education, we are then claiming that educating children on firearm safety will help prevent children from (intentionally) killing themselves with a firearm?

What statistics is he referring to? What causes are being used in the data set to determine numbers per 100k or death percentages? What ages? How are they aggregated in relation to other causes? Is the data set specific to Oregon (as claimed) or calculated by population density from national figures? Etc etc...

What is not a true study citation is.... We took a bunch of numbers from various CDC data points... reorganized them to our needs.. did some math that gave us the result we wanted and.. VOILA!! Does that qualify as "per a 202(?) CDC study"?


What are the data sets? 1. All health related deaths. 2. All non health related deaths... excluding accidental firearm related deaths. 3. Accidental firearm related deaths.?

Just askin....

 

[fredball]

Welcome Aboard

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

Welcome Aboard

I appreciate your support. Have a great day.

 

[Mark_Dorman]

Thank you for the welcome. I can see that in my short time being here, this isn't a platform that I should utilize to help our situation. Have a great day!

I wouldn't say that. I think Kids SAFE Foundation is a great organization that teaches valuable skills. Some people will fight you on the details or statistics and such, but I think most here would agree that teaching firearms safety to kids is valuable and good for the future of gun ownership in America. There are a lot of great gun enthusiasts here that would love to support your efforts. That might just be something as small as sharing with a friend, but you might get a few volunteers and donors as well.

Like anywhere on the internet, you get people who will give you a hard time. But it's also an opportunity to revise how you approach different groups. Gun owners get testy when it comes to how you sight statistics because they've been used so much to paint guns and their owners in a poor light for years.

I personally think what you're doing is great. I grew up in a gun free household but it wasn't anti gun. I would have loved to learn about firearms and firearms safety when I was young. I had a couple of close calls when I first started shooting with buddies because we didn't pay attention to trigger safety or clearing the chamber. I'm very pro gun, but I'm also very pro gun safety. While I understand the pushback for requiring safety courses for gun owners, I also completely understand the benefits of it. I think everyone should learn gun safety and plenty don't bother learning on their own or are too proud/stubborn to take a class.

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

I wouldn't say that. I think Kids SAFE Foundation is a great organization that teaches valuable skills. Some people will fight you on the details or statistics and such, but I think most here would agree that teaching firearms safety to kids is valuable and good for the future of gun ownership in America. There are a lot of great gun enthusiasts here that would love to support your efforts. That might just be something as small as sharing with a friend, but you might get a few volunteers and donors as well.

Like anywhere on the internet, you get people who will give you a hard time. But it's also an opportunity to revise how you approach different groups. Gun owners get testy when it comes to how you sight statistics because they've been used so much to paint guns and their owners in a poor light for years.

I personally think what you're doing is great. I grew up in a gun free household but it wasn't anti gun. I would have loved to learn about firearms and firearms safety when I was young. I had a couple of close calls when I first started shooting with buddies because we didn't pay attention to trigger safety or clearing the chamber. I'm very pro gun, but I'm also very pro gun safety. While I understand the pushback for requiring safety courses for gun owners, I also completely understand the benefits of it. I think everyone should learn gun safety and plenty don't bother learning on their own or are too proud/stubborn to take a class.

I appreciate your perspective. I'm glad you have had the opportunity to experience gun ownership. It is our goal as an organization to give children the chance to learn safety, discipline, and respect for firearms. These 3 principles are valuable to the next generation and all of our civil rights.

 

[Koda]

Thank you for the welcome. I can see that in my short time being here, this isn't a platform that I should utilize to help our situation. Have a great day!

Your giving up on this too soon. The people in this forum need to know you exist and the free classes you offer.

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

Your giving up on this too soon. The people in this forum need to know you exist and the free classes you offer.

Ok, I will hang on.

 

[Yarome]

Well. I guess putting any person on ignore that is asking for more information and transparency about a highly concerning statistic... if true... is certainly one approach.

I wouldn't say that. I think Kids SAFE Foundation is a great organization that teaches valuable skills. Some people will fight you on the details or statistics and such, but I think most here would agree that teaching firearms safety to kids is valuable and good for the future of gun ownership in America. There are a lot of great gun enthusiasts here that would love to support your efforts. That might just be something as small as sharing with a friend, but you might get a few volunteers and donors as well.

Like anywhere on the internet, you get people who will give you a hard time. But it's also an opportunity to revise how you approach different groups. Gun owners get testy when it comes to how you sight statistics because they've been used so much to paint guns and their owners in a poor light for years.

I personally think what you're doing is great. I grew up in a gun free household but it wasn't anti gun. I would have loved to learn about firearms and firearms safety when I was young. I had a couple of close calls when I first started shooting with buddies because we didn't pay attention to trigger safety or clearing the chamber. I'm very pro gun, but I'm also very pro gun safety. While I understand the pushback for requiring safety courses for gun owners, I also completely understand the benefits of it. I think everyone should learn gun safety and plenty don't bother learning on their own or are too proud/stubborn to take a class.

Fairly well said.

I'm not at all "fighting" against what S.A.F.E. is doing, though, or the programs they offer.

As I stated repeatedly... I am an avid supporter of firearm education. Especially among our youth and the goal of S.A.F.E. is highly commendable!

However, making unsupported sensationalist claims and potentially propagating damaging misinformation that is highly likely to be used to further infringements on 2A rights is, IMHO, inexcusable... regardless of how worthy the end goal may be.

It goes toward credibility of the cause and something that should be considered when not only seeking support from those that are largely pro-2A advocates and firearm owners (IOW, the main support base for efforts such as these), but also how firearm related issues are being represented to the public.

I'll step off my soapbox, but it's not a good look.... in the slightest.

 

[P7M13]

Welcome aboard.
We met at Cabela's Tigard years ago.
Unsolicited advice: as a charity board member for a national 501(c)3, you will always have detractors and cynics. There's good reason for this when you look at the abuses many charities perpetrate.
I don't see that here.
However, when asked for information, statistics, clarification or copies of your 941, be prepared, thorough, and follow through.
Stay strong.

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

Welcome aboard.
We met at Cabela's Tigard years ago.
Unsolicited advice: as a charity board member for a national 501(c)3, you will always have detractors and cynics. There's good reason for this when you look at the abuses many charities perpetrate.
I don't see that here.
However, when asked for information, statistics, clarification or copies of your 941, be prepared, thorough, and follow through.
Stay strong.

Great advice! We have all of our 990s for the public to view. We thought about maybe adding them to our website. Thank you for being kind.

 

[Koda]

Great advice! We have all of our 990s for the public to view. We thought about maybe adding them to our website. Thank you for being kind.

Your doing a great job with your kidssafe program. Forgive any criticism in this group it wasnt warranted, and so really glad to hear your sticking around... ive met you a couple of times at your class and will probably take my youngest to one more again as a refresher. Its so valuable to have a more official instruction to reinforce what i teach at home. I cant begin to tell you how valuable your class has been. Ive tested my youngest on what youve taught and its stayed but as they grow older i want to reinforce the lessons learned. Please keep us informed on your work and classes especially in the Portland area.

 

[Kids_SAFE_Fdn]

Your doing a great job with your kidssafe program. Forgive any criticism in this group it wasnt warranted, and so really glad to hear your sticking around... ive met you a couple of times at your class and will probably take my youngest to one more again as a refresher. Its so valuable to have a more official instruction to reinforce what i teach at home. I cant begin to tell you how valuable your class has been. Ive tested my youngest on what youve taught and its stayed but as they grow older i want to reinforce the lessons learned. Please keep us informed on your work and classes especially in the Portland area.

I'm so honored to hear that. We will be back at Cabela's on Saturday actually. Barely anyone signed up. Would love to see you guys if you can make it.

 

[Koda]

I'm so honored to hear that. We will be back at Cabela's on Saturday actually. Barely anyone signed up. Would love to see you guys if you can make it.

Too short notice this weekend but i have you in my radar...

 

[Yarome]

Forgive any criticism in this group it wasnt warranted,

In "your" opinion.

Regardless of how in-line with worthwhile efforts that we support.... we should most certainly be asking questions when statements, claims or actions are being put forth that do damage to our 2A rights.

Be it a Christian religious group (LEVO) propagating the misinformation that firearms are the #1 cause of death among "children", A safe company for the 2A community (Liberty) who is backdealing to push through fed mandatory safe storage laws and violating legal process against their customers... or... a highly worthwhile foundation teaching firearm safety potentially propagating unsubstantiated sensationalist claims about firearm danger to children.

It is not in the least out of line to request transparency in those claims and should not mistakenly be interpreted as an attack against what their goals are.

I hold no ill will and admire people of faith (LEVO). Companies offering affordable safe storage options to the 2A community is invaluable... and Liberty certainly was one of the leading mfg in that regard. Teaching firearm safety to our youth is an invaluable resource!

However... for any of those examples... it is not an excuse to make statements or take actions that undermine the preservation of 2A rights in our country.

I apologize if my remarks were taken as an attack against what they are trying to accomplish. I stated multiple times... I fully support what they are doing.

But... I make no apology for asking for transparency in their claim. If it's true, I really would like to know that and it shouldn't be an issue producing the data they used to reach that conclusion. Being unwilling or unable to though does send up some red flags and lends toward credibility.


I don't buy into the whole, "dishonesty is acceptable... as long as we're the ones doing it" mentality. Especially when it has greater potential to hurt us.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

While I understand that muzzle loading firearms ain't the most popular....
Unless you are at my house....

I would be happy to help with y'all teaching firearm safety from a muzzle loading standpoint...
If we could find a way for this to work with you being down there...and me being up here....
Eugene and La Conner are about 350 miles apart....
Andy