Need Model ID ... Old Remington Double with Hammers

shotgun · Nov 4, 2013

This old 12ga double is in rough shape , but will make a great wall hanger in my gun room .... but would like to know vintage and model # .... all I see on it is ...

Remington Arms Co.
Ilion NY USA

229473 ( ser# )
206
45
P - F5

ALSO ... is there any way to take the surface rust off without damage ?

Any help would be great ...
Thanks... Doug

jbett98 · Nov 4, 2013

For a simple but effective rust removal method, go to You Tube and look up how to remove rust with a battery charger
and some Arm & Hammer Super Soda Wash.
You will be amazed how much rust will migrate to the sacrifice rod in 24 hours.
Dry with compressed air and then liberally spray the gun with WD-40. Then clean up with a medium stiff brass brush.

sealine · Nov 4, 2013

Looks like a Remington 1889, but hey, I'm no expert and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :s0114:

This link should get you started:
<broken link removed>

shotgun · Nov 5, 2013

I weill try this ... THANKS

shotgun · Nov 5, 2013

Great site ... THANKS

==================

sealine said:
Looks like a Remington 1889, but hey, I'm no expert and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

This link should get you started:
<broken link removed>

Rick4070 · Nov 6, 2013

Wouldn't the battery charger method also remove any bluing or browning?
Just curious, as I've never tried it...

I think that I'd try OOOO steel wool and a light oil first., and try it on the bottoms of the barrels first, just to see what it does.

I've used OOOO steel wool to remove surface rust in the past, without doing any damage to the remaining bluing on several different firearms, but I'd procede cautiously.

Also, in my experience with WD40 around machine tools, when the carrier evaporates, it seems to leave a somewhat gummy residue, so I don't think I'd use it on any parts inside the lock work, but maybe that's just me...

TwinStick · Nov 6, 2013

Is the "battery charger method" the same as electrolysis? It certainly looks like this is what you're referring to.

Rust removal by Electrolysis - Removing rust from a Briggs and Stratton engine shroud - YouTube

jbett98 · Nov 6, 2013

Yes, the Briggs & Stratton video is the same method.
Steel wool is not your friend, more firearms have been ruined by rubbing them with steel wool.
The battery charger method dissolves only the rust, but, if you left it in the solution for a couple of weeks, it will eventually start to remove the base metal.
The beauty of this method, is that it removes all of the rust in every nook and cranny without having to scrub the surface.
Watch the videos and look on You Tube where the guy removes the rust on some old 1" barn bolts, washers and nuts.
They are literately one big lump of rust, and a couple of days later, he is turning the 1" nut by hand.
Remember, use Arm & Hammer Super Soda Wash. It's cheap and every grocery store carries it.
One box will last a long time.
WD-40 is a water displacement formula and is used to wick away any remaining moisture in hard to reach areas..
I would spray Break Free or any other high quality firearm lubricant all over it when done with the process.

Rick4070 · Nov 6, 2013

jbett98, I guess we will have to agree to disagree about using OOOO and light oil, I have used that method for the last 45 years or so, and can't remember doing any damage to blued firearms, no matter if they were a highly polished blue or a matte finish.

But, I guess experiences vary.

Also, are not rust blue and browning both "rust?"

Have you ever used the battery charger method to remove rust from a blued or browned barrel???

(Not talking about hot dip "bluing," here, but what would be found on that old Remington shotgun.)

Oh, and what do you think they use to card off the rust when rust bluing, after the rust, and before boiling it in water??? Very fine steel wool, and/or a very fine wire wheel...

jbett98 · Nov 6, 2013

I understand the different bluing processes and the carding is done after the boiling water (that's what changes the Ferric Oxide state (Fe2O3), which is red, to the Ferric Ferrous Oxide state (Fe3O4), which is blue-black.)
Yes, bluing is a form of rusting, but the rust showing on the surface of the firearm is above and below the surface of the metal (micro pitting.)
If you try to remove all of the rust with steel wool, you have to degrade some of the original bluing to remove all of it.
What about the bore, internal areas and where the double barrel is soldered together. How do you scrub off the rust between those areas.
Ever seen sunken ship metal retrieved from the ocean.
You can't even recognize what it is with all of the concretion built up. The used the same method as I have described and they don't use steel wool and oil.
Go take an old piece of rusted steel and try this method. See what happens.
If you have a variable ampere battery charger, you can speed up or slow down the process, depending on how much of a hurry your in.
Next time I find an old rusted barn gun, I will take pics of the process and show it step by step.

Rick4070 · Nov 6, 2013

Yes, I'd really like to see how the rust removing process is going to remove the surface rust without removing the rust bluing, or browning on an old gun.

Removing the rust from an old bolt where there is no bluing or browning to preserve is something that I could very well see happening, and I have no doubt that it works well on rusty steel items, but I have concerns where you are trying to preserve the rust blued or browned finish.

I saw the process used to remove the rust from an old Stanley plane in a woodworking book, and it came out gray, almost as if Naval Jelly was used.

Looking forward to your pictures.

Oh, and I admit I did get the rust blue sequence wrong, I've only rust blued one rifle, and that was about 20 years ago.

Blitzkrieg · Nov 6, 2013

I hope this is just a wall hanger project, OR you get some serious hands on expert inspection/analysis AND the proper low pressure loads.. even so I would fire it at first tied to a tire at 25 feet

jbett98 · Nov 6, 2013

Think about this process in stages. When you use oil and steel wool, you are trying to only remove the orange colored surface rust and not the underlying bluing.
The electrolysis does the same thing, it attracts the surface rust by polarizing the rust particles and they then migrate towards the sacrifice iron.
You check the piece periodically to determine how long to leave in the solution.
Let's say you have a rusty firearm like the one presented here. It won't open and you can't cock the hammer.
How much oil and steel wool will it take to get it to open and cock the hammer?

Rick4070 · Nov 6, 2013

Well, I'm pretty sure the OP said "Remove the surface rust, without damage" not "I have a solid ball of rust that looks somewhat like a firearm."

In the case of a rusted shut firearm, I'd first check it to see if there was possibly a cartridge in the chamber and/ the magazine, (seen it happen,) then I'd remove the wood, and then soak it in a good solvent for as long as it takes things to work loose, then I might try the battery charger method.

If it is a solid ball of rust, or rusted shut, the surface finish is going to be shot anyway, so I doubt that there is going to be any bluing left on the barrel or other parts anyway.

I think you are getting off the track of "remove the surface rust without damage," and going to the solid ball of rust scenario, which isn't what the OP asked.

And, again I ask, have you ever personally done it on a rust blued or browned barrel?

ZigZagZeke · Nov 6, 2013

Before you do anything to this old shotgun, get an opinion of its value from somebody who knows old guns. Doing anything to disturb the finish that's on it at this point could lower the value significantly. If you contemplate restoring it, there are places that specialize in that kind of thing. I have some good contacts for antique gunsmithing and new wood for old firearms. PM me if you want.