Man charged with murder for defending his business

[PlayboyPenguin]

I'm not disagreeing that his story might not be clearly matching up with the facts, but from watching the video tape I still think that it was within the realm of reasonable. It will be interesting to see how the story unfolds.

Actually, his story is in complete contradiction of the facts...which is why he has been charged with Murder I and not a lesser charge.

I spent a number of years in both a military uniform and a short time in blue (brown actually) and I have been under fire more than once. This man's actions were not in line with someone under duress.

 

[Mutoman]

You can't Legally "FINISH OFF" anyone who is not an immediate threat to life.
That's called MURDER.

You must have 3 events happen at the same time in order to shoot or continue shooting. Once the threat has been neutralized you must stop firing.

1.Physical or Verbal Intent ("I'm going to shoot your head off") (or weapon)
2.The Means (Weapon or expert Skill)
3.Ability (Able to kill you or cause GREAT bodily injury that could lead to death)

Excellent statement of the obvious!

1. Neutralized is based on personal judgment.

2."Legal" is all dependent on weight of circumstance.

The point is that if some scumbag comes onto my property with shown intent to cause me deadly physical harm, I'm shooting until his momma isn't going to have to worry where he is at night anymore. I am not going to stop, think about it, and walk over and shoot him. I am going to shoot until he is dead; that's when the situation will be over.

...or maybe not.

 

[tionico]

I couldn't get much out of the video linked, even the so-called security tape. HIS account said he'd been hit in the arm first, heard a round pass his head.... clearly was, or had strong grounds to think he was, in the way of lethal force. Responded in kind, may not have known which perp, or both, had the weapon. He fired... downed one of them. (with shots flying, is he supposed to figure out how many are armed, which one is or will fire next? No-- I'd take whichever shot I could get off... BOTH were part of lethal force, attacking. HE said after the obe fledm ge saw the downed one trying to get up. Could he be certain he was either unarmed or decided he'd had enough? Maybe.... Could he have stayed, gun trained on the downed one until cops arrived? Maybe...... but, HOW could he KNOW his buddy, with or without the gun, might not be coming back in to finish his work? The training stuff I've read says don;t stop shooting until threat is neutralised. That means not moving, surrendered, disarmed, bound..... this guy was still attempting to get up.... and shoot again? Maybe.....

HE said it was after he dealt with the floored guy he grabbed the other pistol and went out.... facing a shotgun aimed at him. No further threat? There were still two of his employees in the back at risk. Would the first perp return to harm them? Maybe....

I didn't see where any of this was clearly shown on the videos.... far too many questions. Book him on Murder One? Over-reaction, I say... likely to play to the incensed crowds screaming RACIST. Hey, where are the mobs of white people screamong racist cause three black punks tried to pull a job on a white guy? Same deal, other side. Black punks won't work for their cash, pick on the white guy who does.

The sad part is, no matter what the jury decide, this guy is finished in that town. Even if he has any money after his defense. After lost time from his buseness, bad publicity from the press and racially motivated mobs, I doubt he'll be able to continue in that business.

Once more the victim becomes the criminal and bears the cost of someone else's crime. Whether the later shots are found justifiable or not, I sure hope the guy is found not guilty. One thing might play into his favour, though. Murder 1st degree is premeditated, willful, deliberate, usually involves lying in wait. That is a VERY high bar to maintain. If felony manslaghter were the charge, the DA's success would be fairly certain. But the standard of proof is VERY high for murder.... beyond any shadow of doubt, and an unanimous jury verdict. There are enough mitigating and clouding circumstances this seems unlikely, on the face of the presently available details. Perceived lethal threat alone would cast enough doubt to make 12 jurors fail to agree. And remember, this IS Oklahoma.... far more conservative, self-reliant, non-nanny-state government than WA or OR.

Wouldn't surprise me if the DA made a very calculated move to calm the lynch-mobs and at the same time raise the bar for conviction so high he could bepretty sure he'd be acquitted. Unless he's got some condemning details not yet public.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

The point is that if some scumbag comes onto my property with shown intent to cause me deadly physical harm, I'm shooting until his momma isn't going to have to worry where he is at night anymore. I am not going to stop, think about it, and walk over and shoot him. I am going to shoot until he is dead; that's when the situation will be over.

I am not 100% behind that line of thinking, since I believe in shooting only until the threat has ended and never with deadly intentions (death is a side effect of ending the threat, not a goal), but I could much more easily stand behind you if you simply fired and kept firing when presented with a threat to your life. I could very easily say, he did what he had to do to be certain he was safe in that type of situation...but not if you came back later and executed your assailant.

 

[treemanx]

I couldn't get much out of the video linked, even the so-called security tape. HIS account said he'd been hit in the arm first, heard a round pass his head.... clearly was, or had strong grounds to think he was, in the way of lethal force. Responded in kind, may not have known which perp, or both, had the weapon. He fired... downed one of them. (with shots flying, is he supposed to figure out how many are armed, which one is or will fire next? No-- I'd take whichever shot I could get off... BOTH were part of lethal force, attacking. HE said after the obe fledm ge saw the downed one trying to get up. Could he be certain he was either unarmed or decided he'd had enough? Maybe.... Could he have stayed, gun trained on the downed one until cops arrived? Maybe...... but, HOW could he KNOW his buddy, with or without the gun, might not be coming back in to finish his work? The training stuff I've read says don;t stop shooting until threat is neutralised. That means not moving, surrendered, disarmed, bound..... this guy was still attempting to get up.... and shoot again? Maybe.....

HE said it was after he dealt with the floored guy he grabbed the other pistol and went out.... facing a shotgun aimed at him. No further threat? There were still two of his employees in the back at risk. Would the first perp return to harm them? Maybe....

I didn't see where any of this was clearly shown on the videos.... far too many questions. Book him on Murder One? Over-reaction, I say... likely to play to the incensed crowds screaming RACIST. Hey, where are the mobs of white people screamong racist cause three black punks tried to pull a job on a white guy? Same deal, other side. Black punks won't work for their cash, pick on the white guy who does.

The sad part is, no matter what the jury decide, this guy is finished in that town. Even if he has any money after his defense. After lost time from his buseness, bad publicity from the press and racially motivated mobs, I doubt he'll be able to continue in that business.

Once more the victim becomes the criminal and bears the cost of someone else's crime. Whether the later shots are found justifiable or not, I sure hope the guy is found not guilty. One thing might play into his favour, though. Murder 1st degree is premeditated, willful, deliberate, usually involves lying in wait. That is a VERY high bar to maintain. If felony manslaghter were the charge, the DA's success would be fairly certain. But the standard of proof is VERY high for murder.... beyond any shadow of doubt, and an unanimous jury verdict. There are enough mitigating and clouding circumstances this seems unlikely, on the face of the presently available details. Perceived lethal threat alone would cast enough doubt to make 12 jurors fail to agree. And remember, this IS Oklahoma.... far more conservative, self-reliant, non-nanny-state government than WA or OR.

Wouldn't surprise me if the DA made a very calculated move to calm the lynch-mobs and at the same time raise the bar for conviction so high he could bepretty sure he'd be acquitted. Unless he's got some condemning details not yet public.

I agree with most of that. +1

 

[gunnoob75]

Hey, where are the mobs of white people screamong racist cause three black punks tried to pull a job on a white guy? Same deal, other side. Black punks won't work for their cash, pick on the white guy who does.

The sad part is, no matter what the jury decide, this guy is finished in that town. Even if he has any money after his defense. After lost time from his buseness, bad publicity from the press and racially motivated mobs, I doubt he'll be able to continue in that business.

Once more the victim becomes the criminal and bears the cost of someone else's crime. Whether the later shots are found justifiable or not, I sure hope the guy is found not guilty.

Chilling fact.

I'll do you one better. If, say, you and I went and started screaming about how black youths need to stop robbing people? I bet you, 100%, there would be a drive-by shooting.

I've got body armor. Anyone want to go?

 

[Blackfeather7]

The kid didn't display a weapon and they don't say they found one on him. The pharmacist executed him plain and simple. However, it is Oklahoma and he is white while the perp/victim is black. I bet he skates. I grew up in Oklahoma.

 

[22many]

but, HOW could he KNOW his buddy, with or without the gun, might not be coming back in to finish his work? QUOTE]


Normaly I would agree with this statement but the article says that the pharmacy had a one-way door that only opened from the inside. It being his store, he should know that automatically.
However, I dont know how many times I have heard the saying "if they break in and you shoot them, make sure their dead". With hearing that over the years (as we all have) Im sure his brain went into "autopilot" and he didnt think. Anyways, thats my opinion.

 

[gunnoob75]

The kid didn't display a weapon and they don't say they found one on him. The pharmacist executed him plain and simple. However, it is Oklahoma and he is white while the perp/victim is black. I bet he skates. I grew up in Oklahoma.

I saw a gun in the video.

If two men approach me in the bar, and one puts a gun to my head, logical thinking says they BOTH want to kill you.

Still, I agree with the execution bit. And the man is definitely trying to lie his way out of it.

But it has nothing to do with the kid being black, whether you like it or not.
This country is NOT as far back as people like to think. He won't "skate" because he killed a black kid.

 

[Blackfeather7]

I saw a gun in the video.

If two men approach me in the bar, and one puts a gun to my head, logical thinking says they BOTH want to kill you.

Still, I agree with the execution bit. And the man is definitely trying to lie his way out of it.

But it has nothing to do with the kid being black, whether you like it or not.
This country is NOT as far back as people like to think. He won't "skate" because he killed a black kid.

The gun in the video was in the hand of the guy that ran out, not the one who ended up dead. How much of a threat was he lying on his back with a bullet in his head? The pharmacist was wearing a back brace, still in pain from the last robbery, obviously still angry also, and anger clouds the judgement. If you can't control yourself once your attacker is down and neutralized, you have no business carrying a gun. His Judge put him down. His Keltec was jury and executioner.

As far as your last paragraph, "But it has nothing to do..." He might not skate completely but the charge will at least get reduced to man II and he won't do more than two years at most. "This country" is not the same everywhere, that's why I moved to the west coast from Okie City many years ago. The D.A has charged him with murder, but if he pursues this charge he will lose the next election. The white majority will see to that.

 

[gunnoob75]

The gun in the video was in the hand of the guy that ran out, not the one who ended up dead. How much of a threat was he lying on his back with a bullet in his head? The pharmacist was wearing a back brace, still in pain from the last robbery, obviously still angry also, and anger clouds the judgement. If you can't control yourself once your attacker is down and neutralized, you have no business carrying a gun. His Judge put him down. His Keltec was jury and executioner.

As far as your last paragraph, "But it has nothing to do..." He might not skate completely but the charge will at least get reduced to man II and he won't do more than two years at most. "This country" is not the same everywhere, that's why I moved to the west coast from Okie City many years ago. The D.A has charged him with murder, but if he pursues this charge he will lose the next election. The white majority will see to that.

Looks to me like the kid hit the ground at the SAME time the other guy started running. I would imagine Mr. Store owner got his gun and just started shooting the second anyone had a gun facing his direction.

I already told you I agree with the being executed bit.

In the comments, people were saying how there were black people "protesting" afterwords because a black person got killed. I didn't see anything about white people being there, or white people protesting about black kids stealing, or anything like that. So the black community has support. I see no evidence of anyone showing up to SUPPORT the store owner. No old racist rednecks, nothing.
Yes, there's still "hate groups" around. But it's not so government corrupted like you seem to think. There are too many organizations around for that to slide on past like it did in history.

 

[tionico]

The D.A has charged him with murder, but if he pursues this charge he will lose the next election. The white majority will see to that.

like I said earlier, proving Murder 1 to the twelve on the jury "beyond a shadow of doubt" will be a tough row to hoe. Enough mitigating circumstances, enough activity going on, enough to make a clear judgement call 100% accurate.... I can't see a jury, white, or mixed, delivering a guilty verdict. Now, if the twelve were all hothead black, he's done for. But any lawyer worth the sheepskin his letters are prited on won't allow such a jury to be seated. And remember, in a murder one charge, the verdict MUST be unanimous. Anything less means acquittal.


Even if it is now proven the guy on the floor was unarmed, again MY question: until its all over, how could he KNOW that? He was a partner in the use of lethal force. For both to be armed would not be the least surprising, in fact, I'd treat both as armed and dangerous until proven otherwise. And sometimes the ONLY solid proof of one's unarmed status comes after its too late. Good advice: if you're going to hang out with others who use lethal force in the commission of a crime, be prepared to face the full consequences as if you are armed. Sad a 16 year old kid, his whole life ahead of him, had to die like this. Even sadder he had not a suitable upbringing to teach him such behaviour is unnacceptable and risky. He played those odds and lost. He likely had no Papa to train him in righteous living. And his Mama likely is either mostly absent or too busy with other things she didn't either.

And the pharmacist, because he was there, is the real victim, even though he yet lives. I can see why some, given that situation, would simply hand over the cash and drugs, and wake up the next morning, filling out police and insurance papers, but a free man. the decision of these three perps to hit this place instead of the next one has severly punished this citizen. At least the video shows ONE of the punks with a heater..... this fact establishes the presence of lethal force. The shotty in the car will help, as well. TWO of the three perps armed? Likely the third was too... in theory. All he heeds to be acquitted is to cast any doubt whatsoever that the killing was not premeditated. The DA blew it in not charging him with Man 2.... but maybe this was intended?

 

[JAFO]

The DA blew it in not charging him with Man 2.... but maybe this was intended?

I don't think the DA blew it. The charges can always be amended. Plea deal perhaps but I doubt it. I don't know what the 1st degree murder charges require in Oklahoma but usually the premeditation doesn't require any specific amount of time to take place. Once the pharmacy guy allegedly decided to finish the job he planned the murder.

I just wonder if the judge, the jury, or statuatory sentencing minimums will determine the sentence after conviction. I vote for community service.

 

[Blackfeather7]

Looks to me like the kid hit the ground at the SAME time the other guy started running. I would imagine Mr. Store owner got his gun and just started shooting the second anyone had a gun facing his direction.

I already told you I agree with the being executed bit.

In the comments, people were saying how there were black people "protesting" afterwords because a black person got killed. I didn't see anything about white people being there, or white people protesting about black kids stealing, or anything like that. So the black community has support. I see no evidence of anyone showing up to SUPPORT the store owner. No old racist rednecks, nothing.
Yes, there's still "hate groups" around. But it's not so government corrupted like you seem to think. There are too many organizations around for that to slide on past like it did in history.

They guy has already made bail, which is not usually granted in Oklahoma City on 1st degree murder charges, certainly never for a black man. Somebody anonymously posted $100,000. How's that for SUPPORT?

The racist rednecks aren't protesting on the street because they don't need to. Protests are for people with no behind the scenes power. The charges will be reduced because the D.A. wants to keep his job and the good ole boys who run the city and the state aren't going to stand for one of their own going to McAlester State Prison for killing a black kid. Justice ain't color blind, at least not in Oklahoma. Bail is just the first step toward reduced charges and possibly a slap on the wrist.

 

[gunnoob75]

How many other people up for first degree murder are tied up in a Self Defence case? And have no criminal record (It seems), and are Iraq war veterans?

How many of those black men that didn't get bail have criminal record, are gang affiliated, etc etc.

I'm by no means calling the black community as a whole criminal. But the fact remains; How many of those black men that didn't get bail were attacked at work and fired back?

No, the old guy wasn't just for pumping holes in the kid. Not at all. But the short story is; "These kids came into the store waving a gun around. One of them got killed instead." Despite how it happened, what took place, and who was involved. They went in with a gun, and someone smacked them down. They should have seen it coming, and it's the kids own fault it happened.

 

[CharlesAFerg]

The D.A has charged him with murder, but if he pursues this charge he will lose the next election. The white majority will see to that.

Uh...Excuse me? On what basis..?

How many other people up for first degree murder are tied up in a Self Defence case? And have no criminal record (It seems), and are Iraq war veterans?

How many of those black men that didn't get bail have criminal record, are gang affiliated, etc etc.

I'm by no means calling the black community as a whole criminal. But the fact remains; How many of those black men that didn't get bail were attacked at work and fired back?

No, the old guy wasn't just for pumping holes in the kid. Not at all. But the short story is; "These kids came into the store waving a gun around. One of them got killed instead." Despite how it happened, what took place, and who was involved. They went in with a gun, and someone smacked them down. They should have seen it coming, and it's the kids own fault it happened.

That doesn't exactly hold up in court. It's up to him to be better than them. I was all for this guy until he grabbed the gun and casually shot him some more. He said himself, "he was trying to get up." Well... Duh.
Not justified, as much as I would like to support everything else he did.

I mean, it's like Hezbollah building hospitals and schools in Lebanon, it doesn't make them right.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

The pharmacist didn’t create this situation. He may lose in the kangaroo court before this is all finished but this looks to me like justice plain and simple.

Don’t do the crime if you can’t stand the consequences. I don’t care about race, age, gender or any other excuses. The circumstances were caused by the perps and it was rightfully resolved by a law abiding citizen.

I prefer DEAD perpetrators!


:gun11:

 

[Flakman5000]

Actually if you make a citizens arrest you have every right to chase them down.

 

[IrishFitz]

...I vote for community service.

Ditto

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I vote for 20 years in prison for anyone that would summarily execute an unarmed and defenseless person..