Man charged with murder for defending his business

[Teufel_Hunden]

We cannot have the people thinking that they are allowed to defend themselves. The gulag is not yet full!

Seriously, can you tell me what the perp was doing? I watched the video and I cannot tell. Justice was served!

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

We cannot have the people thinking that they are allowed to defend themselves. The gulag is not yet full!

Seriously, can you tell me what the perp was doing? I watched the video and I cannot tell. Justice was served!

Shooting an unarmed an injured person that is lying unmoving on the ground is not defending yourself. Anyone that cannot understand that should not be in possession of a firearm, IMHO.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

How are you so sure that they were just laying on the ground? And you have x-ray vision to tell that they were un-armed?

I'm sure glad you have the ability to tell. I hope to NEVER face this sitautaion but, if I believed there was ANY possibility of danger, the perps are history.

I have no feelings of symapthy for any bad guys!

 

[Blackfeather7]

I vote for 20 years in prison for anyone that would summarily execute an unarmed and defenseless person..

Ahmen!

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

How are you so sure that they were just laying on the ground? And you have x-ray vision to tell that they were un-armed?

I'm sure glad you have the ability to tell. I hope to NEVER face this sitautaion but, if I believed there was ANY possibility of danger, the perps are history.

I have no feelings of symapthy for any bad guys!

I have a pretty good handle on forensic sciences and a mild grasp on crime scenes. It is pretty easy to tell if someone was immobile when being shot in such a fashion...and it is pretty easy to tell from the actions of the shooter and the angle of his body when he fired the last shots that he is shooting at a target still lying on the floor. It does not take a genius, just a non-prejudiced eye.

 

[Descendant]

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

OK x-ray!

 

[treemanx]

I have a pretty good handle on forensic sciences and a mild grasp on crime scenes. It is pretty easy to tell if someone was immobile when being shot in such a fashion...and it is pretty easy to tell from the actions of the shooter and the angle of his body when he fired the last shots that he is shooting at a target still lying on the floor. It does not take a genius, just a non-prejudiced eye.

I have to ask then, were you one of the crime scene investigators? Did they release the highly detailed information of exactly how this crime scene was laid out after the shooting to PlayboyPenguin? I think you may have seen one too many episodes of CSI. They told you that the blood spatters under the victim wasnt consistant with someone who was trying to get up? I think you are arguing a point that doesnt lie in this story. No one is arguing that murder is ok. The point is that this guy did what he should have to keep his own *** alive.

It could have just as easily been that the kid had a pistol tucked into his waistband. And the bullet that struck him in the head had him hurt, but not out of the fight. The man couldve done what you wanted him to and assumed the kid was out of the fight, and left himself open to being shot when he had his back turned.

This kid decided to start playing a deadly game, and the game doesnt always immeadiately stop when someone gets injured. It is easy for you to say, "well the kid didnt even have a gun," but you tell me how the guy was suppose to know that in the heat of the moment. It is easy for you to say, " the kid was defenseless lying on his back on the ground," but you have NO idea if he was really just lying there, or trying to get up like the guy said, or lying there still to play possum with the guy until he had his back turned. YOU DONT KNOW. And niether did he.

 

[treemanx]

Shooting an unarmed an injured person that is lying unmoving on the ground is not defending yourself. Anyone that cannot understand that should not be in possession of a firearm, IMHO.

Yes, if your just walking down the street, and find someone lying on the ground bleeding, it is DEFINATELY not defending yourself to then shoot that person.

But if that person just tried to rob you at the point of a gun, and you shot him first, and THAT is why hes lying bleeding on the ground, then there you have a different story.

I find it disturbing that you would trust a mugger with your life just because hes injured lying on the ground. Dont ask anyone else to feel the same, and dont think you can judge gun ownership just because you have an opinion.

Ive said it before, and Ill say it again, opinions are like a-holes, everybodys got one and they all stink.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Yes, if your just walking down the street, and find someone lying on the ground bleeding, it is DEFINATELY not defending yourself to then shoot that person.

But if that person just tried to rob you at the point of a gun, and you shot him first, and THAT is why hes lying bleeding on the ground, then there you have a different story.

First off, the man he killed was unarmed from the start according to the evidence at the scene...and even if he had not been unarmed shooting him while no longer a threat is NOT acceptable behavior. I will once again state that anyone that cannot understand this should not be bearing the responsibility of carrying a firearm.

 

[treemanx]

Have you ever been shot in the head at point blank range? Well I have. I also have two friends in law enforcement, and a friend from high school who were as well. One with a .25 auto in the cheek, one with a .44 rem mag in the lower jaw, one with I believe a 9mm near the temple, and one with a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buckshot directly in the face. Every one of them survived, and had varying degrees of capability to defend themselves after the fact.

From this limited (but more than most peoples) experience, I can tell you that every wound to the head will have different effects on everyone. Depending where you are struck in the head, to what caliber was used, to the persons own constitution. It is more than reasonable to assume that this kid COULD have had a deadly weapon of ANY sort (since he was in fact just moments prior, involved in an armed robbery with loads of intent) on his person, and still been well within being capable of killing someone after his wound to the head. I'm sorry if you dont understand that fact, but it is true.

Now whether or not you agree that the pharmacist should have handled that threat differently after the first shot, thats your right to have that opinion. But dont call my or anyone elses right to own firearms into question just because you think your right. You may think it sounds like it validates your position in this, but it only in fact makes you sound ignorant.

And as Forrest Gump says, thats all Ive got to say about that.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

PP,

You are NOT in a position to Asses whether or not this guy was a threat. You sound like the rest of the liberal media, make the victim a criminal and make the perp an angel. I'm not buying what you are selling!

Respectfully, you are unable to determine threat level from your perspective. I am unaware of your backround and quite frankly don't care.

I can tell you if you have ever been on the other end of a situation like this your adrenaline is flowing like a mother and you are FORCED to make instantanious decisions.
Armchair quarterbacks all suck!

I will not comment on this thread again but I'll never be convinced that a live robber, rapist, mugger etc is good for society.

Deader is BETTER!


I stand by my thoughts!

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Have you ever been shot in the head at point blank range? Well I have. I also have two friends in law enforcement, and a friend from high school who were as well. One with a .25 auto in the cheek, one with a .44 rem mag in the lower jaw, one with I believe a 9mm near the temple, and one with a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buckshot directly in the face. Every one of them survived, and had varying degrees of capability to defend themselves after the fact.

From this limited (but more than most peoples) experience, I can tell you that every wound to the head will have different effects on everyone. Depending where you are struck in the head, to what caliber was used, to the persons own constitution. It is more than reasonable to assume that this kid COULD have had a deadly weapon of ANY sort (since he was in fact just moments prior, involved in an armed robbery with loads of intent) on his person, and still been well within being capable of killing someone after his wound to the head. I'm sorry if you dont understand that fact, but it is true.

That has no relevance to this situation since the facts of this case indicate the perp was non-moving and on his back at the time of the second shooting. Different circumstances from different scenarios have no bearing on his actions. He shot an unarmed, non-moving, probably unconscious man lying prone on his back in an execution style fashion.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I'll never be convinced that a live robber, rapist, mugger etc is good for society.

Deader is BETTER!

Teufel_Hunden,

Your last post is a disgrace and an embarrassment to the entire gun community. I would have no problem stating that I feel you have no business being in possession of a firearm if the things you post in a public forum are any indication of your true judgement.

You are NOT in a position to ASSes

Real mature.

I can tell you if you have ever been on the other end of a situation like this your adrenaline is flowing like a mother and you are FORCED to make instantanious decisions.

I am a combat veteran and former LEO. I guess you are not very good at making assumptions.

 

[treemanx]

PP,

I will not comment on this thread again but I'll never be convinced that a live robber, rapist, mugger etc is good for society.

Deader is BETTER!


QUOTE]

Everyone has the right to a fair trial for any crime. Our judicial system may not be perfect all the time, but its part of what makes our country great and usually brings due justice. I am not a proponent for any civilian or LEO making themselves judge jury and executioner, although I do enjoy watching the Death Wish movies!

It is just my opinion in this perticular case that while the specific facts of the case seem to be unclear, the man acted to assure under no uncertain terms that the deadly threat was stopped.

I would have rather seen the pharmacist, after the shot to the head, hold the man at gun point until either the police arrived or the perp actually showed a weapon. So I can see where you are coming from in that regard PP. But on the other hand we cannot, number one, expect an untrained civilian to perform like a police officer, and number two, to expect that he should have the opinion that the threat was neutralized IF the perp was trying to get up or was still moving.

In some of the training Ive had, shows you just how fast someone can attcack and kill you with just a knife. We used to drill with dummy weapons, with one man standing at 25 feet away with a knife, and the other man with a holstered pistol. In the time it took to draw the pistol and fire at 25 feet, the man with the knife was close enough to stab you. That drill just shows you how fast someone with intent can reach you and kill you before you can put a shot downrange. Now, this situation is a little different, but all it would have taken was for the perp to have rolled over to one side to get ahold of the Jennings he had in the back of his waistband, and fire 10 shots into the phamacist who thought he was no longer a threat because of the shot to the head.

 

[Sawdust]

What a waste of time...all this web bashing. Was anybody here, (on this forum) there at the crime scene. Does ANYBODY have better video of the shooting. No? I didn't think so. IF IF IF............. If the suspect was indeed unconscious then it was a bad shoot. If the suspect was moving, talking, cursing, even writhing from pain it could reasonably been perceived as an immediate threat. Then the shoot could be ruled justified. Remember that the victim (the store owner) had no-way of knowing if there is a weapon on the suspect or not. The news reports all have a bit of spin on them. Until the forensics is complete we are all just guessing and passing judgment. I will concede that in the video the last shots appear to be "cold blooded", but I was not there. So with that said I pray for the store owner, have no pity for the suspects (if you play with fire...............) and will still carry my weapon no matter what you all think.

Good night everybody!

 

[Loaded1985]

the admin guys on this forum should start a poll one this topic see where the whole forum stands.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Remember that the victim (the store owner) had no-way of knowing if there is a weapon on the suspect or not.

Which is why most of us would have fully supported his shooting of the perp whether he turned out to be armed or not if he had not followed through with his later actions. In fact, on another forum I was a very vocal supporter of the shooter until after the video was made public.

I will concede that in the video the last shots appear to be "cold blooded", but I was not there.

In reality, video tape is much more reliable than eye witness accounts.

 

[Trlsmn]

That has no relevance to this situation since the facts of this case indicate the perp was non-moving and on his back at the time of the second shooting.

Tell me where on the video you see the "perp" laying on his back not moving? You don't because you don't see the "perp" at all when he is shot in the stomach Perry Mason. When you use the word fact you really should use some facts!

Different circumstances from different scenarios have no bearing on his actions. He shot an unarmed, non-moving, probably unconscious man lying prone on his back in an execution style fashion.

Again show where this is fact! The guy could have been reaching for a cell phone which was interpreted as going for a weapon by the "real" victim, none of which is on tape. Don't state assumptions as facts Perry.

 

[Trlsmn]

I have a pretty good handle on forensic sciences and a mild grasp on crime scenes. It is pretty easy to tell if someone was immobile when being shot in such a fashion...and it is pretty easy to tell from the actions of the shooter and the angle of his body when he fired the last shots that he is shooting at a target still lying on the floor. It does not take a genius, just a non-prejudiced eye.

So when did you observe this crime scene Perry?