looking to get into ak's but don't know where to start

[unklekippy]

While I agree that the AK is probably a better overall battle weapon than an AR, I think your Ford vs. Chevy analysis is more than a bit over-the-top skewed towards the AK. The Russians thought that the 5.56 NATO cartridge was 'ridiculous' enough to develop a new AK series around their own 5.45 version.

A system that IMO beats all three...is as accurate as an AR, simpler than and as robust as an AK, and as hard hitting as an M14...is the direct impingement system of the French MAS 49/56. The French certainly aren't known for their engineering, but with this rifle they almost hit a home run. If they hadn't limited it to a 10-round magazine and a proprietary 7.5 caliber, the M14 and G3 would have been stillborn.

Keith

Actually, we already had a great battle rifle called the M1 Garand that outperfomed the 49/56. Your analogy is the same with any gun. If they used a better round this, or a different firing mechnis that. If the AR hadn't beenmade to dust sage rat's, it would be incredible as well. But it was made for sage rats. And the MAS does suck. So there goes your analogy.

As far as the Russia' being lulled into trusting a varmint round, they need to remember that great American sodiers do not come from our carbine round. American soldiers are great even when hampered with such a foolish gun and cartridge. That the Russians or others would try to capitalize on that is a no-brainer. That anyone would equate American success to a horrible gun and round(the same reason that troops have been dusting off every M14 and 1911 that they can find to adequately fight) is almost funny. American soldiers are the best because they fight and win no matter the situation. We used to win more decisively with a .30.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Chinese AK's are excellent. You can find a Arsenal SLR95 for that price range, milled receiver, excellent trigger. You can switch out the wood furniture with American made <broken link removed> .
I prefer Arsenal (Bulgarian) built AK's, along with Chinese and AK's built by reputable builders. I've never had any issues with any of these rifles.

WOW, those guys are a little testy on the website aren't they? Sound really condescending & will lose business because of it. Not everyone is an expert on these weapons but they do not deserve to be treated like the village idiot...

 

[mancat]

IWD has always sort of expected you to know exactly what you're looking for. Probably not the best attitude to have, but a lot of customers DO seem to completely ignore the information that's already there. It happens all the time with web-based businesses.

 

[206thsense]

Classic Firearms is offering 2 different AKs for $799...

Waffen Werks AK-74
AK-74 Semi-Auto Rifle W / Chrome Lined Barrel by Waffen Werks. - Long Guns

GP1975
<broken link removed>

Both rifles include mags and carrying cases.

Personally, I own an Arsenal SGL-21 and LOVE it. Glad I bought it in November before the election / Sandy Hook craziness.

 

[tiggers97]

IWD has always sort of expected you to know exactly what you're looking for. Probably not the best attitude to have, but a lot of customers DO seem to completely ignore the information that's already there. It happens all the time with web-based businesses.

They do have <broken link removed> 10/22 stocks!

 

[oneharmonic]

Good luck with getting an Arsenal for $800.

I did, from a member on this forum.

But it was way, waaaaay back in 2012

 

[trainsktg]

Small loss to me. Never did see much reason for a 5.56 AK. Now a 5.45x39 AR that’s a different story.

I absolutely agree. It is no accident that Combloc ammunition have tapered cases. The taper is a big reason that an AK will continue to run in a dirty or corroded chamber long after a straight-walled case wiil jam a rifle tight. OTOH, Comploc military rounds are also still corrosively primed, and in third world crapholes where used motor oil and shoelaces are the cleaning supplies of the day, corroded chambers would tend to be a problem so the tapered case a necessity.

Keith

 

[bestfromnw]

Ranch and home in eastern oregon/washington has Polish AK's for $749.99, bulgarian arsenal's for $1049 and yugo folders for 900 in stock...might be worth a drive

 

[mancat]

I absolutely agree. It is no accident that Combloc ammunition have tapered cases. The taper is a big reason that an AK will continue to run in a dirty or corroded chamber long after a straight-walled case wiil jam a rifle tight. OTOH, Comploc military rounds are also still corrosively primed, and in third world crapholes where used motor oil and shoelaces are the cleaning supplies of the day, corroded chambers would tend to be a problem so the tapered case a necessity.

Keith

Maybe you guys don't know, but there are several militaries that currently issue 5.56-chambered AKs. The reliability issues are largely a myth attributed to poorly conducted 5.56 AK imports in the US - e.g. the Romanian SAR3 and WASR3 series that initially shipped with modified 5.45 magazines.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Maybe you guys don't know, but there are several militaries that currently issue 5.56-chambered AKs. The reliability issues are largely a myth attributed to poorly conducted 5.56 AK imports in the US - e.g. the Romanian SAR3 and WASR3 series that initially shipped with modified 5.45 magazines.

Yes, and that being said they have armorys there to fix and refurbish not to mention manufacture aks under a gov contract thus any issues with the rifle can be sent back to the armoror, be repaired or replaced with a plethera of spare bolts, parts and magazines.
Here in the US only a few have picked up the manufacturing of 556 and 5.45x39 magazines, bolts and surplus mags can be had now but if any UN trade treaties occure it could be years before anything is domestically manufactured. Im sure it will be, but the time gap could be a year.. Or 5.

As for surplus parts, mags and ammo.. Its just a matter of time before the 556
And 5.45 mags dry up (like the hk33s, weigers..etc) and the market has to finally come out with a new product. The 7.62x39 avoids all that because parts and domestically made mags and ammo are already here and in current production.

All in all, for the first time ak buyer.. He should just stick with the 7.62x39.. Until the ak bug gets him

 

[mancat]

Yep, but until then there are more domestic mag producers than people think, and there really aren't that many unique parts to the 5.56 AK. Heck, the Saiga .223 can use a 5.45 AK-74 bolt with no problems - just needs to be headspaced. How often does an AK bolt fail any way?

I won't say much else about it as it's not really related to first-time AK buying. I just wanted to clear up one of the myths about the 5.56 AK.

 

[michaelwilson98]

So basically an ak not an aks and 7.62x39 and not any of the smaller calibers. I think that using an ak in the caliber it was designed in is a good idea anyway. I've also done a little reading on it and it a few different articles say that the new stamped receiver's are better because they have a little more flex?

 

[biggie24420]

So basically an ak not an aks and 7.62x39 and not any of the smaller calibers. I think that using an ak in the caliber it was designed in is a good idea anyway. I've also done a little reading on it and it a few different articles say that the new stamped receiver's are better because they have a little more flex?

I have done a lot of research and seen some good vids but I am in no way an AK expert... but I know a thing or two. Unless it's an original AK47.... now days we have AKM47. M meaning modern.

As far as milled or stamped receivers go.... I guess the milled is a little more accurate, stronger of course, and it is heavier. There is less flexing (watch a slow motion vid of an AK being shot) and some say that can eventually cause receiver cracking but I have a hard time buying that. A stamped receiver AK is easier to produce because it's not a chunk of metal being milled out (less money to produce a stamped receiver). There is more flex and it's a little less accurate. It is more of a close to mid range rifle, you aren't gonna be sniping people with an AK lol.

You can learn a lot on YouTube btw..... I've looked up some vids by Jim Fuller from Rifle Dynamics in Vegas. That guy seems to know what he is talking about. He recommends the 7.62 AK rifles over the 5.45 AK rifles. But for CQC, he likes the 5.45x39 (AK74) because the round performs really good with fleshy targets... such as using the round for home defense. The 5.45 has better aerodynamics but not as much "knock down power" when you compare to 7.62x39. It just depends on your POU (philosophy of use).

All the spam can 5.45 military surplus ammo is corrosive and I personally don't like that, but if that's all you have, that's where the chrome lined barrel comes into use because it won't mess up your barrel like it would if you didn't have chrome lined barrel and didn't clean the rifle right away. The thing with corrosive ammo is that you wanna wash/clean your rifle ASAP after shooting corrosive because the sodium in the corrosive ammo is what starts to mess up the metal in your gun. Granted you can buy non-corrosive 5.45 (sliver bear etc.) but I don't know how easy it is to find and how much it would cost.

Magazines seem to be easier to find for the AK47 (you can find good mags on AIMsurplus.com right now). I used to have an AK74 and it was nice because it had less recoil, the military surplus rounds were nasty.... the FMJ bullet has a hallow cavity at the tip with lead covered steel core. Based on some vids that I've seen, the 7.62x39 has better penetration compared to the 5.45x39. One good thing is that the AK74 mags are lighter when loaded compared to the AK47.

when it comes to the AK rifle (we are gonna focus on stamped receivers) there are the original design rivet builds, there are screw builds, and I guess welded builds. A lot of builders I guess don't really understand the way things are done in the East. They don't know the true design of the AK "platform" so they rebuild with screws or weld the rifle because they don't wanna rivet. But they don't know that the appropriate AK rivet has lead in it to help with the gun flexing... it expands and contracts with the flex.... and I guess that's why some say that a milled receiver can crack because the receiver does not flex like a stamped one does. The AK platform was designed to flex, it was designed with loose Tolerances. That is why the AK is very reliable (assuming it was built good and not a Billy Bob backyard special) and you don't have to worry about cleaning it and keeping it clean constantly. We've all seen the torture tests with AK rifles... need I say more?

I think you will be just fine with a stamped receiver, but if you got the money and you want a second type of cool.... you can get the milled. Also it's a good idea to make sure that you have matching numbers, if you decide to get a parts kit build AK. I personally stick with factory/mil. spec. mags unless you buy cheaper quality mags for range use.

I think an AK in 5.56/.223 would be really nice for someone who has an AR or other rifles that shoot the .223 ammo. That way it's one less caliber to worry about.

 

[mancat]

Both types have advantages and disadvantages.

Milled:
-Pro: More rigidity may provide better accuracy/precision.
-Pro: Milled receivers are generally associated with higher-quality AKs, and many US-made milled receivers are very well machined.
-Con: Makes for a heavier rifle, usually by a pound or two.
-Con: Potential reliability problems. Probably not much of a problem with modern US-made milled receivers, but old combloc milled receivers sometimes had metal fatigue failures, especially near the locking lugs. The theory is that because of the relative thinness of the receiver rail walls, the receiver literally beat itself up over time by action of the carrier/bolt slamming home. The allowance for flex inherent in the stamped receiver avoids this problem.

Stamped:
-Pro: Lighter. A stamped AKM or any stamped derivative, even the heavier-gauge versions based on the RPK receiver such as the Vepr or Yugoslavian AKs, are going to be lighter than a milled receiver model.
-Pro: More common. There are some slight differences between the average milled receiver AK, and a stamped AK. Most AK accessories are designed for the stamped-receiver AKM family, though most will work in a broad range of rifles including milled-receiver AK-47s. This is because the AKM and its derivatives (including the AK-74) are the most commonly licensed and reproduced AK design in the world, far more than any milled receiver AK-47 or any of those types.
-Con: One of the suggested culprits behind the AK's relative accuracy loss versus other designs is the stamped receiver, which allows for some flex of the receiver - this is compounded by the fact that stamped-receiver variants typically have lighter barrels than the milled receiver variants, which introduces some potential for barrel whip. However, this is all subjective: many stamped AK designs are very accurate.
-Con: If buying a US-made AK, some stamped receivers are poorly-made. This can range from poor tolerances, to poor heat treating and beyond. When buying an AK, a foreign-made receiver is usually best, because this means that the receiver was made on the proper tooling, proper processes, by workers who in many cases have been doing this since communists were in power. This applies to any number of European or Asian AKs: e.g. Romanian, Hungarian, Russian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Polish, etc. Unless you KNOW that the builder used a quality receiver (e.g. Elk River, Nodak Spud), buy a foreign-made AK when it comes to stamped receivers.


Caliber is never really a concern of mine.. The AK is a very adaptable platform, sort of like the AR family, and generally works correctly in whatever caliber it's chambered for. The only issue that crops up is, can you find magazines? e.g. It can be a pain to find high-capacity magazines for a Vepr 7.62x54r, or a Saiga .308, but you can be sure that either one of them is going to function 100% mechanically when you're actually using them.

 

[trainsktg]

A word about corrosive ammo to clear up a slight inaccuracy previously posted:

There is no sodium in corrosive ammo. The agent that causes corrosion is primer residue in the form of potassium chloride. Like any salt, it attracts moisture and salt water causes corrosion. Like any salt, it can also be washed away with water. Window cleaner with ammonia is commonly used to clean corrosive primer residue. Unlike popular internet myth, the ammonia does nothing to 'neutralize' corrosive residue, but it does have the ability to dissolve copper residue. The ability to remove copper residue, which water can't touch, allows primer residue that collects in small, deep pores to be uncovered and then washed away by the water.

That said, cleaning corrosive can become a chore, and although I have a ton of it, I generally only shoot it regularly in my bolt rifles and save the corrosive stuff for my AKs for an emergency.

Keith

 

[biggie24420]

A word about corrosive ammo to clear up a slight inaccuracy previously posted:

There is no sodium in corrosive ammo. The agent that causes corrosion is primer residue in the form of potassium chloride. Like any salt, it attracts moisture and salt water causes corrosion. Like any salt, it can also be washed away with water. Window cleaner with ammonia is commonly used to clean corrosive primer residue. Unlike popular internet myth, the ammonia does nothing to 'neutralize' corrosive residue, but it does have the ability to dissolve copper residue. The ability to remove copper residue, which water can't touch, allows primer residue that collects in small, deep pores to be uncovered and then washed away by the water.

That said, cleaning corrosive can become a chore, and although I have a ton of it, I generally only shoot it regularly in my bolt rifles and save the corrosive stuff for my AKs for an emergency.

Keith

Interesting.... I hear that Ballistal mixed with water is one of the best ways to clean a Firearm after shooting corrosive ammo. I use Ballistal myself but I don't shoot corrosive ammo.

 

[biggie24420]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPF5IyN3BJs

 

[mancat]

Corrosive cleanup is not a big deal, but part of the problem is that the corrosive salts can get everywhere - not just inside the gun, but outside as well. Around and outside of the gas tube, and rear sight block, especially. You really need to clean the whole rifle thoroughly after firing corrosive surplus.

This is why I generally avoid corrosive in semi-auto rifles. Bolt rifles? No big deal. New manufacture 5.45x39 is really not that expensive. I consider the little extra cost to be insurance against unnoticed corrosion in the hidden parts of your rifle.

 

[coop44]

Kind of tough using the chicom furnature, so that leaves Thea available:
1) US gas piston
1) US slant brake
3) US trigger group
1) US follower in the mag (kind of lame)
-----------------------

6 out of 17 leaves 11, only allowed 10 imported parts, right? Or have the numbers changed?

 

[mancat]

AK parts count is 16.