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If you own a GSG 5 SD, you are now a criminal.

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by slideglider, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. slideglider

    slideglider PDX Member

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    If you own one, you could be arrested if they really felt like messing with you.


    VIA: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/02/shhh-its-secret-atf-approves-13000.html

    To all retail customers:

    On January 2010 American Tactical Imports Inc received official notification from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and explosives that the original barrel shroud (aka: fake suppressor) supplied with your GSG 5 SD model must be replaced. It has been determined that this shroud is regulated under the National Firearms Act. American Tactical will provide a replacement shroud at no charge for each GSG 5 SD model sold or currently in inventory.

    Consumers in possession of a GSG 5 SD model with the original shroud in place on the firearm are now in violation of the NFA. To avoid continued violation of the NFA, ATI asks that all persons in possession obtain a replacement shroud as soon as possible. We anticipate arrival of the new shrouds to begin by the middle of February 2010.

    IMPORTANT: THE ORIGINAL SD MODEL SHROUD MUST BE RETURNED ACOMPANIED BY THE FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER BEFORE A REPLACEMENT SHROUD IS ISSUED. THE DIAMETER OF THE SD SHROUD IS 1-9/16”. DO NOT RETURN THE SMALLER CARBINE SHROUD.

    WHAT TO DO:

    If possible return your old shroud to the dealer where purchased and show him this notice. The shroud will be returned to ATI along with a list of serial numbers from the guns that the shrouds were removed. ATI will send replacements to the dealer for pick up at your convenience; ATI will be sending replacements as fast as logistics allow. If your dealer is out of business or difficult to reach, or you purchased your gun used, from a consumer, return the shroud directly by US mail or UPS to American Tactical Imports Inc. 100 Airpark Drive Rochester, NY 14624.

    PLEASE TRY NOT TO CALL US. We will provide comprehensive information on our web site www.americantactical.us , and www.ar15.com or by e-mail to atiexchange@americantactical.us

    REMEMBER, INCLUDE THE FIREARM SERIAL NUMBER WITH EACH SHROUD OR A REPLACEMENT WILL NOT BE ISSUED.

    This action IS NOT being instituted through any fault and is strictly due to NFA compliance. American Tactical will assume the responsibility to satisfy the requirements in an effort to minimize the impact on our customers and protect your investment.

    We at American Tactical Imports Inc. sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused by this unfortunate situation.

    Sincerely,
    Anthony DiChario
    President C.E.O. retailcandoc.021210




    This is what I found most interesting from the Q&A below:

    We at ATI only have an official ruling on the can its self as being now classified as a real silencer. ATF has not issued any official documents regarding this publicly or to ATI, other than having their lawyers approve the statement that starts this thread for consumers. (Emphasis supplied, MBV) I wish I had a 'here's the official word!' doc from ATF to give you, but it appears at this time I will not be getting one, or be allowed to show you what I already have.



    So, the Chief Counsel's Office is up to their old CYA secretive tricks again.

    Here is the Q&A following the statement on the same ARF-com thread:

    How much more is the replacement going to weigh? Is the finish any better on the new one. Mine chips the paint if you look at it wrong. Will it look the same when installed on the rifle?

    The original SD fake suppressor weight .45 LBS (7.2 ounces). The new fake suppressor weight .5 LBS (8 ounces) so there's not really too much difference in the overall weight. Looking at the new one next to the old one, the finish looks the same. The modification is completely internal, there is no change in the guns appearence with the new fake suppressor.


    OK, since this applies ONLY to the GSG5/SD does this mean that the standard GSG5-carbine is in the clear???? Or is the fate of the GSG5-carbine "yet to be determined"??????????

    As it stands right now it is only the SD can that is being effected by the mind changing at ATF.


    Another damn delay on getting an SD conversion kit!

    Tell me about it


    And I am to be responsible to ship it back? I would like you to pick it up

    At this time, we would like you to return it to the dealer where you bought it from. That way we can get them in bulk from the dealer and ship replacements to one location. How it gets to your dealer is up to you.


    interesting, brings up a couple of questions, wasnt it passed before importation? and what reason do they give?

    Yes it was. I even have a letter I'm not allowed to share where they revoked our permits for being approved in error. The brunt of this entire situation is on ATI here, please don't look for an official letter to be issued to the public by the ATF because I get the feeling they will not.


    just curious, what will the replacement shroud look like? will it be the smaller version, or something completely different?

    Nope, dead ringers. In fact, the modification can be done at the factory on the original version, which is why we're not destroying them. Cost saving.


    Is there an issue with the carbine models?

    Not yet. Doesn't mean that they won't change their ruling on that either at this time though.


    isnt the carbine and the SD the same thing besides "girth"? i cant see why they would have changed the design without letting ATI know about it.....even thought they already changed the finish

    This is the real kick in the groin here is that there has never been an alternate 'version' of the fake suppressor. The carbine version was a hollow shroud when it went in for testing, all the guns have hollow cans. Same for the SD. I think what's bothering me the most is that field agents have told dealers (I have several different accounts of this) that the can was originally solid and that it was altered at some point in time. Sorry fellas but EVERY SINGLE GSG-5 AND GSG-5SD HAS A HOLLOW CAN. It's the only way they were ever made. Also to pre-empt some questions too, THERE ARE NO APPROVED CANS ON ANY SD THAT IS IN THE COUNTRY. All the new GSG-522 guns, when they come out will have the new style can.


    Does the fake can actually reduce the dB ?

    Mikey threaded one onto the 5P and shot a bunch of rounds. Nope, there is no noticable change in dB. I don't think ATF even tested it before revoking our licenses.


    I know that "we must comply or else" but seriously, what is the reason behind this? Is it based on potential? Should we stop selling 2 liter colas and baby bottle nipples?

    When we met with the ATF about this in january one of their field agents showed us how to make a suppressor out of a bottle of water that was on the table. Granted, we have seen fake cans come in on gun repairs that have definitely been altered and maybe they seized a gun with an altered one, i really don't know. They contacted us about it way back in November and it's all been slowly building up, but other than letting us know that we imported over 13 thousand guns that they have now decided are NFA firearms, telling us to formulate a plan for a recall/swap out and sending agents here to monitor our movements on this, they're not really telling us a whole lot.


    Isn't the end of the barrel even with the muzzle end of the "can"?

    Yes, doesn't matter apparently.



    What reason did they give for the can falling under NFA?

    Actually, I do have this, kind of, although the wording of the law and their reasons only kind of match up if you squint and tilt your head to the side a bit. Here is what the referenced in their letter regarding the re-testing of the shroud;

    "As you are aware, the GCA, 18 USC $ 921 (a) (24), defines 'firearm silencer' as follows:

    "....any device for silencing, muffling or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication."

    General characteristics of known firearm silencers include:
    1 Ported inner tube (bleed holes)
    2 Expansion chambers
    3 Baffles or washers which create seperate expansion chambers
    4 sound dampening material such as foam, steel wool and other materials
    5 End Caps
    6 Encapsulators

    The previously submitted GSG-5SD barrel shroud incorporates a large expansion chamber and integral end caps and, therefore, was classified as a firearm silencer."

    That's what they said.


    so to me at least, the jury is still out on the issue of whether or not the standard carbine is effected by this as ATI has yet to state that it absolutely is not.

    This is accurate. Right now we have to wait to see what ATF tells us to do.


    ....

    follow link to continue: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/02/shhh-its-secret-atf-approves-13000.html
     
  2. SlickJoeSD

    SlickJoeSD Astoria, OR Member

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    :contract: send it back on your own dime..... wow
     
  3. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    No.

    The ATF has NO RULING over a piece of metal. It does not alter the report of the firearm, it does not make it an SBR, it does absolutely nothing.

    Anyone who caves into this is just reinforcing the ATF's power over the peasants.

    Do NOT abide. Civil disobedience WORKS.
     
  4. bearingman

    bearingman Tualatin Member

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    Civil disobedience MAY work, but just remember Randy Weaver's wife and son were shot over the over all length of a shotgun.
     
  5. xstayfrostyx

    xstayfrostyx PDX Member

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    :angry:

    Thank goodness we have the BATFE to make us all criminals, er... I mean keep us safe from the bad guys.
     
  6. judicator

    judicator McMinnville Active Member

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    total baloney, you know they didn't even test the dB levels of the GSG, some idjit looked at a picture of it, and decided to make it illegal. I feel like hitting the local Gunbroker, I'm pretty sure they've got a used GSG-5 SD with the old suppressor. :drink:
     
  7. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Thank God! Everytime I saw one of these I got worried that the person holding it was a terrorist. I mean why else would you want a silencer (real or otherwise) unless you were going to do something bad with it?

    :)
     
  8. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    Sure they do, they've ruled it is a suppressor.

    And you would be 100% wrong in your advice! There will be an amnesty period followed by the ATF knocking on the doors of registered owners who have not surrendered their now "Illegal suppressor" followed by the people that take your advice having a search warrant executed on there home, followed by their arrest. Followed by $50,000 in lawyer fees and a prison sentence, followed by well, prison rape.....

    I think it's bull too but not enough to go through the above scenario for a 8oz metal sleeve, I'm cautious like that......
     
  9. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Don't forget how worrisome it would be to take it shooting, not to mention that you couldn't really sell it either.
     
  10. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    If you can afford the time and the hassle, and the very high legal expenses, and want to risk the consequences of losing (try to find a judge and jury who are friendly to "silencer equipped assault rifle crazies") go for it.

    Any time you are involved in a case and trial it will drag out for a couple of years and you'll be able to think about little else. You'll get hung up in depositions and statements and lawyer consultations and research and your mind will get pizzed and consumed and ...

    It will take control of your life. I know this just from company civil cases where I had no chance of going to prison or losing anything.

    Just for me, I'd just swap it out and spend my time on something pleasant.

    $.02
     
  11. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Completely asinine.
     
  12. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    What would really suck right now would be to have been the original purchaser and to have sold it FTF to persons unknown and now be the one that will eventually be speaking to the ATF. (Note to self, don't be the original purchaser of any gun with a mock suppressor nor an aftermarket mock suppressor) I like to fly under the radar. ;)
     
  13. Mark-60

    Mark-60 Someplace near Hillsboro Active Member

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    How would the BATFE know who the originals were sold to? I didn't think there was supposed to be a list.


    -Mark.
     
  14. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    Every dealer that has ever had a ATF audit will tell you that the ATF has a record of every ATF Form 4473 transfer ever created regardless of what the law says.
     
  15. The Cheese

    The Cheese somewhere special Member

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    So you are a mod on an open firearms forum...:paranoid:
     
  16. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    "It's wrong. But, there's nothing we can do about it. Just let them have their way."

    This is what got the firearms laws so messed up in the first place.

    I don't play games with people, and I won't play this one. If someone wants to sell me a GSG, I'll call the ATF and tell them that directly.

    At least then you guys could have a good show!
     
  17. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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  18. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    The ATF isn't doing that exact thing?

    And remember, Flashhiders will be next. Afterall, they can apparently just make whatever they want an NFA item. And who's to stop them? No one, since you guys not only can't tell them no, but actually DISCOURAGE resistance.
     
  19. finch6013

    finch6013 Oregon City Active Member

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  20. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to do my protesting at the polls. Not unless I see that this will always fail will I do something else. If I have to do some protesting, it won't be with or about a silencer or a flash hider and certainly not about or with a .22lr.