If you carry do NOT be this idiot

[L84Cabo]

Geez, what a mess. And there's plenty of stupid to go round on this thing. Obviously Paul Blart Mall Cop is a few fries short of a happy meal. But why on earth would parents let their idiot children go walking around in public with realistic looking guns exposed? What could possibly go wrong with that idea?

Paul Blart will likely end up in jail for this as he should. But some kid would still be alive if he had used a simple, 10 cent, paper bag. What a tragedy and waste.

 

[Alexx1401]

In todays liberal legal climate its a much greater risk than your describing, especially if you make the wrong call. Cases like this thread are examples of how well intended individuals easily misjudge situations. In my 20s after I got my CHL and got in a situation I quickly realized I didnt know bubblegum about carrying. So I took a legal class and (I cant recall exactly where I got it from but I think it was this class...) one lesson taught was on intervention.... The story was told: you see a derelict bum beating the bubblegum out of a businessman in a back alley, do you intervene? After the students answered yes or no the rest of the story was told how the "derelict bum" was an undercover officer trying to arrest a violent criminal.
Its also worth asking if the only reason one is intervening is because they are armed? (generally an indicator you shouldn't...)


Some sarcasm, in prison theres often still a "honey-do" list to do...

There has always been too many people who get a permit and have fantasies about "saving the day" and "being a hero" who can't wait to use that gun. Sadly almost 100% of the time they get in a real bind. All I ever hope is the ones with this fantasy just never get a chance to live it. I don't care if they screw up their own life, they made the stupid choice. The part that bothers me is when their fantasy of course goes sideways the media LOVES it. They use it to throw fuel on the fire of the public should not have guns. If you live in any heavily blue jurisdiction even a "real good shoot" can easily be a real life changing problem. This clown made at least two fatal mistakes. First one was trying to live out his fantasy of being a hero. 2 was talking to the Police after. He will be offered some kind of plea deal and he best take the best one some lawyer can get him. He is NEVER going to walk from this here. Hopefully others who have the same fantasy he did will either never have a chance to live it, or will think twice before they insert themselves in something that has nothing to do with them

 

[Alexx1401]

Geez, what a mess. And there's plenty of stupid to go round on this thing. Obviously Paul Blart Mall Cop is a few fries short of a happy meal. But why on earth would parents let their idiot children go walking around in public with realistic looking guns exposed? What could possibly go wrong with that idea?

Paul Blart will likely end up in jail for this as he should. But some kid would still be alive if he had used a simple, 10 cent, paper bag. What a tragedy and waste.

Sadly this is FAR from new. Over 50 years ago I watched an interview with a Seattle Cop who almost dusted a teen. Two teens bought "starter pistols". They were chasing each other firing them. Cop sees this and gives chase. He catches up to one and when he tells him freeze the kid wheeled on him with the gun. Kid got a shocked look and dropped the gun. Cop after was in tears saying over and over again "I almost shot him". As you see nothing has changed. If you search news you will find way too many cases where an LEO does shoot some kid with a toy gun. Yet no one seems to ever learn.

 

[Yarome]

I still think all the bitter condemnation and derogatory remarks are kinda funny. Yeah. He screwed up and standing over a person full of holes and continuing to empty their gun is WAY out of line... however... I have very little doubt that if the firearms had proven real, the teens had a criminal history, suspects in other armed robberies where injuries occurred and the man had acted in the same fashion... most would likely condemn the emptying of his gun into an incapacitated perp, but in large part, congratulating him as a good samaritan.

It's funny how the circumstances of an encounter can be nearly identical, but depending on the background story, in hindsight, it can make a person either a hero or some whacked out trigger happy moron with an irrational hero complex just looking for any excuse to kill, hu(?)

 

[MikeInOr]

I had a co worker get REAL angry with me over this "kind of thing" while back. He asked me if I was in line at some place such as a bank and some scum pulls a gun to rob them. Would I shoot? I said no. He was easy to see fantasizing of being able to shoot said scum. I said if scum decides they want to herd me into some back area or such things change. If scum is taking money and leaving? NOT my problem. This clown went FAR beyond even that. He just decides these kids are going to rob some place so he shoots one of them multiple times. My "rehearsing" is my gun would have never come out of the holster. I would call 911. If the place my kid was at was near there I would be moving my vehicle to the front of that place. If needed put myself between these kids and my kid. This guy is going to have a LONG time behind bars to think about how he chose to handle this. I only post it because I hope some others who carry "may" think twice before playing out their fantasy with that gun they carry. Every time some gun owners does what this idiot did those who want to take our right to have them wave these stories to the public on why we should not have that right.

Well said! Way too many gung-ho cop want-to-be's running around giving responsible gun owners a bad rep.

A CCL does NOT make you a COP! Your hand gun should only come out if your life is in immediate danger! This is something the instructor made VERY CLEAR when I took my CCL class. So clear that I remember his emphasis of the point 30+ years later.

No excuses, from the beginning to the end the rent-a-cop was WRONG in SO MANY WAYS! He obviously had delusions of grandeur. Probably wanted to be a real cop and was rejected.

"Investigators said security footage contradicted the suspect's statements in his police interview, according to court papers." There is only one reason to lie to the cops in an interview...

 

[MikeInOr]

I still think all the bitter condemnation and derogatory remarks are kinda funny. Yeah. He screwed up and standing over a person full of holes and continuing to empty their gun is WAY out of line... however... I have very little doubt that if the firearms had proven real, the teens had a criminal history, suspects in other armed robberies where injuries occurred and the man had acted in the same fashion... most would likely condemn the emptying of his gun into an incapacitated perp, but in large part, congratulating him as a good samaritan.

I have no doubt the killer had delusions of how he was going to be hailed as a hero as he fired at the 17 year old teenager then stood over him and continued to fire to make sure he was dead!

It's funny how the circumstances of an encounter can be nearly identical, but depending on the background story, in hindsight, it can make a person either a hero or some whacked out trigger happy moron with an irrational hero complex just looking for any excuse to kill, hu(?)

I think you better be damn certain of the circumstances before you take someone else's life! Killing someone then hoping that you read the situation properly is the height of arrogance and the bottom depths of irresponsibility. The killers life clearly was not in danger yet he decided to take a life anyway.

I don't see anything the least bit funny about how the killer acted. He was completely wrong from the second he decided to step out of of the car instead of calling 911! I hope he rots in jail for the rest of his life. Not only did he kill an innocent teen he also effed up his own sons life. Not to mention the carnage he is causing for the victims family. What a selfish individual! All so he could live out his demented hero fantasy.

 

[OldBroad44]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Batman. This guy was a security guard, which means (in most states) he has to have licensing and training that would have directly contradicted all his actions here. I do not specifically know what WA training requirements are, but if they do not cover not shooting unarmed people then they may want to reevaluate their training priorities. This guy needs to go to jail for a very long time for just being an abject idiot and succumbing so easily to preconceived biases that he would shoot an unarmed and compliant individual. Honestly I am interested to follow this case, just to see if the guy will double down on his justifications or if he is willing to accept that he is a moron and ask forgiveness for his stupidity.

"Unarmed"? Do the kids count as unarmed? I'd say no.
When someone is carrying something that looks like a real gun, others have the right to treat him like the gun is real. If someone breaks into my house and reaches for his holstered gun, if I shoot him dead, the right or wrong of my action is not affected if it turns out that the guys gun was a real unloaded gun or a toy gun that looks just like a real one instead of a real loaded gun.

However, if the guy is carrying a holstered real or toy gun in public there's no reason to suppose he's breaking any laws or plans to. If he looked underage, the idea that the gun might be a toy should come to mind. The guy actually carrying a real-looking rifle in his hand is a bit more antsy-feelings producing. But outside a store that sells both real and fake guns? Where the guys at the gun counter will be armed? And will be able to tell unambiguously whether an attack is happening? I'd just go about my business. Intervening because someone might be thinking about doing something wrong? Way too complicated for me. Not my department.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I wonder what his NWFA screen name was?

@JusticeT ?

Lulz

 

[OldBroad44]

I do believe in trying to imagine scenarios ahead of time if you carry. And that includes scenarios where you may misunderstand what is going on. Something that looks like a rape may be a sexual role playing game for example.

Once upon a time in my Young Broad days I was walking my dog late at night or early morning in downtown Corvallis. I saw a man slapping a women and struggling with her. And they were arguing, raised voices. An attack between strangers? Unlikely I thought, given slaps not punches. A first date gone wrong? Possibly. A date or relationship gone very wrong where the woman was not being allowed to leave and wanted to? That's what it looked like. But maybe this was normal for them. Some women deliberately choose men who abuse them, and won't welcome anyone who intervenes. I was about 20 yards away, across an empty parking lot. Nobody else around. I was carrying a Ruger 6" Security Six .357 mag revolver loaded with Winchester Silvertip 158gr JHPs. In addition, the dog, a Chow x Spitz cross, was an excellent protection dog. What to do? Not draw the gun, certainly.

I walked forward a few steps and took up a position standing, leaning with my back against a telephone pole, hands on hips, faced directly toward them, obviously watching them, obviously not going anywhere, neither approaching or leaving. But near cover I could jump behind if a gun got pulled.

The guy angrily yelled "What are you doing!?" I yelled back "Waiting to see if I need to call the cops!" Actually I had no intention of calling the cops. This was pre-cell phone days, and the closest phone booth was three blocks away. That response just made it clear I was suspicious of the guy and was going to watch him. But it also was the least challenging possible response. It implied that I did not presume to be capable of taking him on, which was definitely not true. It was the least likely response to provoke a dominance battle that could get the guy shot, or at least, attacked by the dog, the more likely outcome . The guy took three large half running steps towards me, the beginning of a charge or bluff charge. I was motionless. The dog was suddenly, silently between us. The guy broke off the charge and went back to the woman. She was still standing there. She had not used the opportunity to flee. Data. I called out, "Lady, you don't have to go with him unless you want to." They began talking quietly to each other. He was no longer holding her, preventing her from leaving. My presence seemed to have deescalated the fight, given the woman negotiating power. They talked quietly for a few minutes. Then they quietly walked away.

Well. Nothing I could do about it. I would never stay with a man who slapped me even once. But it wasn't my choice. And it was no longer any of my business. Funny thing about that dog. She would bark at stuff that was superficially threatening . But when she really seriously thought she might have to attack something she was dead silent. That's how she was when she got between me and a bear we had surprised in the woods one day.

 

[OldBroad44]

"Despite having no authority to conduct security services at that specific location, police said the suspect told them he offered "overwatch" at the strip mall because of rising crime in the parking lot there."

In other words, the off-duty rent-a-cop presumed to act like a cop without a license. He was deliberately in that parking lot looking for lawbreakers, playing vigilante. If he draws a gun on someone merely because they are armed, he Is wearing no uniform. He is gonna appear to the armed guy as an attacker. Or so appear to an armed bystander. There are a lotta ways this could have gone sideways.

 

[bradsteen]

"Despite having no authority to conduct security services at that specific location, police said the suspect told them he offered "overwatch" at the strip mall because of rising crime in the parking lot there."

In other words, the off-duty rent-a-cop presumed to act like a cop without a license. He was deliberately in that parking lot looking for lawbreakers, playing vigilante. If he draws a gun on someone merely because they are armed, he Is wearing no uniform. He is gonna appear to the armed guy as an attacker. Or so appear to an armed bystander. There are a lotta ways this could have gone sideways.

You beat me to it - I was just about to quote that. At the very least it speaks to the person's state of mind and their perception of their "responsibilities" to society.

Another thing is he was off duty but carrying his company-issued firearm. Unless he happened to be on the way to or coming home from work, there's no reason why he should be carrying that weapon. Guaranteed the company has policies against that exact behavior, as it introduces liability in a circumstance the company has no involvement in.

These two factors imply to me that this guy felt/assumed/believed his role as a security guard granted him power or responsibility above and beyond that of the average citizen. It's also possible that he was aware this perception was flawed, and carrying the duty gun was a subconscious effort to legitimize his behavior.

If the person was a 20-something year old my reaction would probably be a little different. Someone in their early 20s may not have the life experience and self-awareness to recognize when their actions exceed their legal authority - it would not excuse the behavior, but in my mind it would at least make it more understandable. But at 51, this guy should have known better.

There's a lot we don't know about the situation, so it's possible my interpretation is incorrect. I hope they release the camera footage of this incident, as it will answer a lot of the questions we have.

 

[Koda]

There has always been too many people who get a permit and have fantasies about "saving the day" and "being a hero" who can't wait to use that gun.

Well said! Way too many gung-ho cop want-to-be's running around giving responsible gun owners a bad rep.

I dont agree this happens often or people want to play hero. I do agree when it does the media and anti gun exploit it. Over the years Ive read very few occurrences where a good intentioned gun owner screws up. It IS an important lesson to discuss and make known to other gun owners.

 

[Koda]

I still think all the bitter condemnation and derogatory remarks are kinda funny. Yeah. He screwed up and standing over a person full of holes and continuing to empty their gun is WAY out of line... however... I have very little doubt that if the firearms had proven real, the teens had a criminal history, suspects in other armed robberies where injuries occurred and the man had acted in the same fashion... most would likely condemn the emptying of his gun into an incapacitated perp, but in large part, congratulating him as a good samaritan.

It's funny how the circumstances of an encounter can be nearly identical, but depending on the background story, in hindsight, it can make a person either a hero or some whacked out trigger happy moron with an irrational hero complex just looking for any excuse to kill, hu(?)

I'll say the bitter condemnation and derogatory remarks [on the mall cop] are well deserved but I agree with you how easily this could have been the real deal. The inverse of not assuming the situation was criminal is also not assuming it wasn't. Both are equally dangerous traps to fall into. Discussing the role of the armed citizen needs to understand the discernment of either direction a situation can go. Not a simple subject, but an important one.

 

[RVTECH]

View: https://youtu.be/Uhn6nMeRs_0

 

[ilikegunspdx]

View: https://youtu.be/Uhn6nMeRs_0

Hopefully they will obtain more video. That video show the aftermath and 2 deputies coming on scene. 1 teen down, 1 teen in grief, and shooter behind the pillar.

Edit: looking at it again zoomed and slow mo the guy behind pillar definitely has a gun and I think it's the 51 year old. He just doesn't look 51 from the back. Guy behind pillar is talking to deputy but has not dropped his gun. It's at low ready.

 

[Koda]

View: https://youtu.be/Uhn6nMeRs_0

Still not new info but my guess is it sounds like there were indeed two airsoft guns and my guess is the shooting victim was trying to comply by drawing his in his belt to drop it.

Months from now it will be interesting to hear how the trial goes. If my guess is correct do not be surprised of an acquittal.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Still not new info but my guess is it sounds like there were indeed two airsoft guns and my guess is the shooting victim was trying to comply by drawing his in his belt to drop it.

Months from now it will be interesting to hear how the trial goes. If my guess is correct do not be surprised of an acquittal.

If he is acquitted there may be more riots or ? Rent a cop white 51 yo man shoots a black teen (assumed, he is blurred out but other teen is a person of color).

 

[OldBroad44]

Respectfully, and just in my own opinion... this is the type of mental gymnastics and rhetoric that contributes to the problem. Not the solutions.

The whole, "unless you are personally under imminent threat, intervening is just stupid, irresponsible and trying to live out some hero fantasy." shtick.

In the given example, you have no idea how far the situation may escalate. There is clearly an imminent threat present. It may very well suddenly turn your direction and by then your options and time to react may be nil. Choosing not to intervene when you are fully capable of doing so and someone needlessly losses their life due to your inaction... is that something most people will have difficulty living with or is that just another.... "not my problem!" situation?

Take it a step further. Everyone makes it out just fine, but the same perp later commits another robbery and, that time, someone dies. You already gave them the green light to go do it again so... do you feel any responsibility that they weren't stopped before someone died(?)

Certainly it boils down to a personal choice, but I know one thing. If my loved one was seriously injured or killed while at the bank, and I learned that there was a person that was fully capable and had every opportunity to prevent that from happening, yet stood by and let it happen.... Yeah. I'm going to have serious issue with that.

Compliance/cooperation with bad elements is preached from on high. I get it. I also know it's fact that compliance is in no way a guarantee someone isn't going to lose their life. Some bad actors are simply "born bad" and their victims compliance in no way diminishes their desire to visit harm on others.

I for one... if a clear and reasonably safe opportunity presented itself... yet I ignore it and people die with my firearm tucked firmly in my shorts... that would severely wear on my psyche.

Sure. Maybe if you shoot and kill the bank robber that saves the life of one or more bank employees or customers who might have got killed by that bank robber that day or in some future bank robbery this robber does. On the other hand, maybe the plan for the robbery was to just get the cash and get out. But when you tried to stop or shot the bank robber, his clandestine partner and backup shoots you and all the other witnesses.

 

[fredball]

I almost got shot for something similar as a kid. I had just bought a bb gun and was looking at it on the way home in the passenger's seat. Someone called the cops saying I was holding a women (my mother) hostage. We were surrounded by cops in a high risk stop. Thankfully, none of them had an itchy trigger finger that day.

Today's Cop's would have M/Teed their magazines Killing you and your mom collateral damage no apology Qualified Immunity

 

[Catfishmoon]

I don't fault the man for intervening

Intervening in what?

According to multiple stories in the local Seattle press, the teenagers "were going to the store to exchange or return a malfunctioning airsoft gun".