I was wrong about the Sig P320

[DirectDrive]

Genuine question, not trying to dunk: if it's just the lack of external safeties, trigger tabs etc, why doesn't it also happen more with the p365?

Simple.
Usage.
P365 is not a duty pistol.
And therein lies the difference.

 

[lucusloc]

Simple.
Usage.
P365 is not a duty pistol.
And therein lies the difference.

But what exactly is that difference? As far as I can tell the difference is in holster type, not how the gun gets used. Duty holsters typically have more gapage since duty guys are strapping bulkier things onto the gun, like full size lights. They also use a lot more retention mechanisms, which may increase the number of snag points for FOD, or in a worst case scenario might become FOD themselves.

I have a P365. It has a light and it goes in a holster. But it is a slimline light that adds very little width to the trigger area and the holster is still a tight fit around the trigger guard and thus keeps the trigger nice and safe from foreign objects. This seems pretty acceptable to me. Much more so than widbody lights shoved in holsters, and that is true for any gun, because lots of guns have had problems in holsters that fit widebody lights, not just the P320.

 

[DirectDrive]

But what exactly is that difference? As far as I can tell the difference is in holster type, not how the gun gets used. Duty holsters typically have more gapage since duty guys are strapping bulkier things onto the gun, like full size lights. They also use a lot more retention mechanisms, which may increase the number of snag points for FOD, or in a worst case scenario might become FOD themselves.

I have a P365. It has a light and it goes in a holster. But it is a slimline light that adds very little width to the trigger area and the holster is still a tight fit around the trigger guard and thus keeps the trigger nice and safe from foreign objects. This seems pretty acceptable to me. Much more so than widbody lights shoved in holsters, and that is true for any gun, because lots of guns have had problems in holsters that fit widebody lights, not just the P320.

It has a lot to do with how the pistol is predominately used.
Reason is, duty pistols see much more severe service.

 

[lucusloc]

It has a lot to do with how the pistol is predominately used.
Reason is, duty pistols see much more severe service.

I don't see your point, how is the gun used any differently if most of the time "duty use" and "not duty use" sees the gun stored in a holster? Are you saying a duty gun will be pulled out of the holster more regularly and that is the crux of the problem? What exactly is the difference between duty use and not?

 

[1775usmc]

P365 - concealed and just sits in a holster. Isn't going in and out of the holster multiple times in a day. Covered by clothing, preventing foreign objects from contact. Normally not worn going hands on, fighting, wrestling on the ground, running, jumping, etc.

P320 - duty, normally with a X300 or TLR1 WML. Worn outside the waistband. A lot more factors and uncontrolled elements coming into contact. Going in and out of the holster. A lot more human interaction. Fast moving scenarios. Drawing fast, holstering fast, on the move, etc.

 

[Here2SellMyP07]

Are most cops drawing their guns multiple times a day? I was under the impression this was rare

 

[DirectDrive]

I don't see your point, how is the gun used any differently if most of the time "duty use" and "not duty use" sees the gun stored in a holster? Are you saying a duty gun will be pulled out of the holster more regularly and that is the crux of the problem? What exactly is the difference between duty use and not?

You could be going hands on with perps.
You're in and out of vehicles, all the time.
You saddle up, you saddle down, every day.

I see the difference between duty use and civilian use to be quite different.
We'll just have to disagree on that.

 

[Koda]

I dont see how any difference in usage makes one safer than the other...

 

[1775usmc]

I dont see how any difference in usage makes one safer than the other...

Guessing you've never done LE work. There is a huge difference.

The guns are equally safe. But the roles they are used in are totally different and one brings way more risk factors.

 

[DirectDrive]

I dont see how any difference in usage makes one safer than the other...

No.
Not safer. Who said that ?
Incidents.

 

[Here2SellMyP07]

Anecdotally I'll say I tried the "put a screw in the trigger to hold it back to the wall, then wiggle the slide around and see if the firing pin goes" experiment with my 365 and nothing happened. IMO even if there's a "something touched the trigger a tiny bit" factor the 365 is a safer platform than the 320 in that regard

 

[1775usmc]

Anecdotally I'll say I tried the "put a screw in the trigger to hold it back to the wall, then wiggle the slide around and see if the firing pin goes" experiment with my 365 and nothing happened. IMO even if there's a "something touched the trigger a tiny bit" factor the 365 is a safer platform than the 320 in that regard

The P365 has a more robust internal safety system. That's for sure.

 

[lucusloc]

Anecdotally I'll say I tried the "put a screw in the trigger to hold it back to the wall, then wiggle the slide around and see if the firing pin goes" experiment with my 365 and nothing happened. IMO even if there's a "something touched the trigger a tiny bit" factor the 365 is a safer platform than the 320 in that regard

I couldn't get it to work with any of my P320s either. That guy needs to have that gun sent back to Sig or another trusted third party forensic auditor for a complete teardown to find out how it got it to do that. This includes a complete audit of the tolerance stacking on that particular gun. That is the only way to be sure if this is a once in a million, once in a thousand or "its a crapshoot" manufacturing defect, or if there is some other shenanigans going on here. So far as I am aware his test has not been reproduced by anyone else, and it does not seem to be for lack of trying.

 

[1775usmc]

I couldn't get it to work with any of my P320s either. That guy needs to have that gun sent back to Sig or another trusted third party forensic auditor for a complete teardown to find out how it got it to do that. This includes a complete audit of the tolerance stacking on that particular gun. That is the only way to be sure if this is a once in a million, once in a thousand or "its a crapshoot" manufacturing defect, or if there is some other shenanigans going on here. So far as I am aware his test has not been reproduced by anyone else, and it does not seem to be for lack of trying.

Multiple other people on YouTube have shown the same test with the screw. Not just him. SIGs QC and tolerances are all over the board. Depending on year, rolling internal changes (behind the scenes) etc. plus when you have a modular platform and a bunch of people playing legos you're gunna end up with scenarios like this. Being "modular" is a double edged sword. That's not me saying they are "unsafe" just that there is no consistency. At this point I have owned 4 of them. None of them felt the same. Whether it be trigger, slide slop, etc.

At this point no one is sending their guns into SIG to have them inspected. Because no one trust la the company.

 

[WillametteWill]

I think it is funny how @1775usmc when one direction and I went the other in this discussion. I agree with the points from his OP and following, knowing the gaps in duty-type holsters have gone out of control with lights, optics and all. My circa 1985 through early 2000s duty holsters had no gaps to speak of.

As I posted before, I was able to manipulate the slide on one of the 320s in the house with the trigger slightly pulled and make the trigger go dead, so I think there is something to it. But my bride's 320s all have manual safeties and don't allow the trigger to be pulled, so it is a non-issue on her guns. These have been awesome discussions and appreciate how @1775usmc and others have kept an open mind.

Carrying a P320 is the equivalent to carry a 1911 cocked and locked with the grip safety disengaged. The trigger pull is just a little heavier. Not smart in my opinion. But it doesn't mean the gun mechanically is failing. Something is pressing the trigger. There is just nothing stopping/potentially preventing the trigger engagement.

I'm with you on this brother, which is true with so many striker fired guns. People should carry as they wish, but I hope more folks come to understand this.

If SIG could go back, I'd bet that they would have issued a Duty Version.

The M17/18 have mechanical safeties. I'm not sure why they didn't market these to agencies...other than (see above) how most don't want manual safeties.

Are most cops drawing their guns multiple times a day? I was under the impression this was rare

I did. And I didn't even work in the hood. Building searches, taking your gun out when going to jail or other custody locations, end of shift, random, potentially armed baddies, felony car stops. Yup, it's pretty common. When I hear people say something like, "My (fill in the blank) was a cop and he never pulled his gun," I think seriously??? Did he work in Mayberry?

 

[1775usmc]

I think it is funny how @1775usmc when one direction and I went the other in this discussion. I agree with the points from his OP and following, knowing the gaps in duty-type holsters have gone out of control with lights, optics and all. My circa 1985 through early 2000s duty holsters had no gaps to speak of.

As I posted before, I was able to manipulate the slide on one of the 320s in the house with the trigger slightly pulled and make the trigger go dead, so I think there is something to it. But my bride's 320s all have manual safeties and don't allow the trigger to be pulled, so it is a non-issue on her guns. These have been awesome discussions and appreciate how @1775usmc and others have kept an open mind.


I'm with you on this brother, which is true with so many striker fired guns. People should carry as they wish, but I hope more folks come to understand this.

The M17/18 have mechanical safeties. I'm not sure why they didn't market these to agencies...other than (see above) how most don't want manual safeties.

I did. And I didn't even work in the hood. Building searches, taking your gun out when going to jail or other custody locations, end of shift, random, potentially armed baddies, felony car stops. Yup, it's pretty common. When I hear people say something like, "My (fill in the blank) was a cop and he never pulled his gun," I think seriously??? Did he work in Mayberry?

Yup. I love Glocks. Carry one daily. But I am almost to the point that for duty (not concealed) a mechanical safety is almost a necessity. Yes it takes more training.

Sadly civilians who carry a gun (and take it seriously) are a lot of times more proficient and have more hands on experience than a lot of officers. Not all but plenty of LEOs do the bare minimum. Just the required quals and that's it. They aren't gun people and they don't carry about getting better. And that is scary. Same goes for physical fitness and being able to handle yourself when going hands on. The lack of training and lack of desire to put time in off the clock with your own dollars is a detriment to the entire force.

Take the lack of training, high speed gear that opens you up for accidents, add stress and a platform that has no mechanical external safeties and you are asking for issues. The P320 issue is no surprise. And it will continue to happen. Either holsters have to be improved and agencies have to adopt them, lights need to be removed allowing the entire trigger guard to be protected, or a new gun needs to be issued.

P320 is great for the range. It's not a gun for duty use.

 

[Koda]

All carry guns should have an external frame mounted safety...

 

[1775usmc]

All carry guns should have an external frame mounted safety...

Nope. I disagree.

 

[WillametteWill]

All carry guns should have an external frame mounted safety...

When I was writer/editor of a gun club in Oregon's electronic newsletter, I did a poll to see the percentage of safety/non-safety (specifically for striker fired carry guns) and if people carried with a round in the chamber. 60% had guns without safeties, 40% did. In each case, 10.8% carried without a round in the chamber, so a total of nearly 22% do not carry with one in the pipe.

I'm for freedom to carry what you desire, but there are consequences if you don't train. There are some folks (many on this thread) that I wouldn't think twice about having them next to me in stressful event and having to draw and hold a gun without a safety. There are many more in this world where it would scare the crap out of me to be in their proximity. (I worked with some over the years.)

From what I can tell, nearly all LEOs are sans safeties on SF guns. Makes me scratch my head a bit, especially with a 4.5# trigger.

 

[Koda]

From what I can tell, nearly all LEOs are sans safeties on SF guns. Makes me scratch my head a bit, especially with a 4.5# trigger.

Im just a random person, not a leo, but Im fully aware of the difference in roles. I held out with my trusty 1911 for years until only more recently succumbing to the pressure of gun control measures like 114 did I "modernize" before it was too late. I went with a custom Glock style platform, essentially safetyless with a trigger safety. They shoot as well as my 1911s and can say first hand, for my experience, the manual safety does not slow me down but I can say Im very methodolocical (slow) reholstering my strikers. My opinion but I think its bogus for anyone to say a thumb safety gets in the way, but the benifits are very real comparing the two designs espeically for administrative handling. There really is no reason to not want a thumb safety on a carry gun. As just a random person, as I use, carry, store, secure, arm/disarm etc. my carry guns I have my own routine with the mindset that Im human and someday will make a mistake so Ive built redundancies into my civilian gun rountines in life, but with my strikers... I have one less redundancy.