Herter's Ammo from Cabela's

[python287]

Just got my Cabela's Catalog today. It lists Herter's Ammo for the .223 at a decent price. Anyone with experience with Herter's (made in Russia) steel case .223 ?

Have any problems with it ?

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[dmack]

Looks like a Wolf in Herter's clothing.

 

[python287]

Looks like a Wolf in Herter's clothing.

I already know that the Russians make this ammo - my questions is - is it any good - and what problems do steel cases cause if any ??

 

[cyborg]

I believe the issue with any steel case ammo is that it can cause very quick wear on your extractors of the weapons you run it through. AKs are the only weapons with robust enough extractors to run it without concern.

 

[Gunner3456]

With all due respect, how can the very soft steel in a case harm the very hard and tough steel in an extractor?

 

[Cougfan2]

I remember when I was a kid and couldn't wait for the new Herter's catalog to come out! I remember saving up my allowance to order some cheap fishing lures along with the stuff my dad was ordering. Very different company than when old George Herter ran it.

 

[cyborg]

Gunner,

You asked....
"how can the very soft steel in a case harm the very hard and tough steel in an extractor?"

OK,..... How can water harm very hard and tough stone? If you flow enough of it over it's surface......that's how.

Have you ever wondered why brass is the preferred metal for ammo casings and keys? This is because it is soft and IT wears rather than the gun parts or lock parts it is constantly dragged across or inside of.

Keep in mind that though a steel casing may SEEM soft I believe that is mostly due to it being thin and simply more malleable than a comparable thicker piece of the same material. If steel casings are so soft then why doesnt everyone use them? Combloc countries use steel simply as a cost savings.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Gunner3456]

Gunner,

You asked....
"how can the very soft steel in a case harm the very hard and tough steel in an extractor?"

OK,..... How can water harm very hard and tough stone? If you flow enough of it over it's surface......that's how.

Brass is harder than water. I don't get your point.

Have you ever wondered why brass is the preferred metal for ammo casings and keys? This is because it is soft and IT wears rather than the gun parts or lock parts it is constantly dragged across or inside of. I think brass is used for keys because it won't rust.

Keep in mind that though a steel casing may SEEM soft I believe that is mostly due to it being thin No, it is soft because it is low carbon and not heat treated to be hard. and simply more malleable than a comparable thicker piece of the same material. Thickness has zero to do with it. If it did, good knives wouldn't stay sharp. You can't make a knife from cartridge steel, and you can't make a barrel or extractor from it either. If steel casings are so soft then why doesnt everyone use them? Combloc countries use steel simply as a cost savings. I realize that, but it doesn't answer my question as to how the very soft steel in a cartridge can accelerate wear on much higher quality and very much harder steel gun parts.

I hope that answers your question.

If cartridge steel wasn't very soft, it would shatter when fired - when trying to fire-form itself. I've seen AKs with thousands upon thousands of steel cased rounds fired through them. The number one concern has been corrosive components, not the steel.

Why do I think brass is used instead of steel? It won't rust in storage or use, and in manufacturing it's easier and cheaper to process (but not to buy.) Don't get me wrong. I don't buy or shoot the steel cased ammo but it's because I'm afraid it's corrosive and because I can't reload it, not because I think the very soft steel will wear out my guns.

$.02

 

[tattoo]

I just got 500 rounds of there 7.62x39. I hope its good. Then again, I have heard AKs eat anything. They say non corrosive.

 

[cyborg]

Gunner,
I am pretty sure that keys are made of brass rather than steel so that the key wears rather than the lock. Have you ever seen an extractor wear? I have and it was done by shooting a lot of very soft brass through it. My mentioning of water wearing on a rock was merely a reference to how something softer can wear something harder....with lots of time. Of course steel cases are going to be softer than an extractor, we both know that. CHeap steel and all of the detailed things you mentioned..... but even cheap steel is harder than brass. Don't you feel there is any credibility to my suggestion that steel cases will wear an extractor faster than brass?

If brass will wear an extractor then steel will certainly do so and more quickly.

 

[Gunner3456]

Gunner,
I am pretty sure that keys are made of brass rather than steel so that the key wears rather than the lock. Have you ever seen an extractor wear? I have and it was done by shooting a lot of very soft brass through it. My mentioning of water wearing on a rock was merely a reference to how something softer can wear something harder....with lots of time. Of course steel cases are going to be softer than an extractor, we both know that. CHeap steel and all of the detailed things you mentioned..... but even cheap steel is harder than brass. Don't you feel there is any credibility to my suggestion that steel cases will wear an extractor faster than brass?

If brass will wear an extractor then steel will certainly do so and more quickly.

I'm sorry, once you said:

Keep in mind that though a steel casing may SEEM soft I believe that is mostly due to it being thin and simply more malleable than a comparable thicker piece of the same material.

You lost me. There are so many different kinds of steel in different alloys and with differing amounts of carbon and different heat treatments that soft steels can be used against hard steels for all kinds of reasons.

If you wanted a steel key that wouldn't wear out a lock and that could be used on a key cutting machine you could use very soft steel like they do in cartridge cases. The problem is that the key would rust in your pocket. You couldn't fight that by chroming the surface of the key because keys ore often cut on site, removing any plating from the edge.

From Wikipedia: Link

"Despite popular misconception, steel-cased ammunition does not increase wear on the chamber or extractor of firearms. This is because the steel used in cartridge cases is mild steel which is very soft in comparison to the type of steel used in firearm components.

Also, steel cases are often given a thin coating of lacquer or polymer, so there is no direct steel-to-steel contact with the chamber. The only disadvantages to using steel cases is that steel is not as "elastic" as brass, and therefore does not create as efficient a gas seal when a round is fired. Many people believe steel cases cannot be reloaded, however this is not true. The steel cases are tougher than brass and do require a little more work to reload, but they can be reloaded."

 

[Gunner3456]

Looks like a Wolf in Herter's clothing.

FWIW, Wolf doesn't make a lot of its ammo. They have it made and private label it. I suppose it's possible that this is therefore the same as Wolf, but I wouldn't know.

Also, just for giggles, Wolf ammo is no longer corrosive. Many people think it is because it cruds up the chamber. That's because even mild steel cases are somewhat harder than brass and don't form to the chamber upon firing as well as brass does. That allows firing gases to "leak" back around the case and create carbon build up in the chamber. This doesn't bother an AK much because of loose tolerances, but still needs to be cleaned out regularly. An AR on the other hand will need to be cleaned for those deposits much more often due to tighter tolerances. You can even get Wolf cases stuck in an AR and that's often erroneously blamed on "burned" lacquer or plastic coating from the cases but it's actually carbon build up from firing.

Even US made brass cartridges are usually lacquered or plastic coated to keep them from corroding and to keep them cosmetically shiny. You discover that real fast when you try to really polish brass in a tumbler. That coating doesn't crud up a chamber.

$.02

 

[toolfan]

If you wanted a steel key that wouldn't wear out a lock and that could be used on a key cutting machine you could use very soft steel like they do in cartridge cases. The problem is that the key would rust in your pocket. You couldn't fight that by chroming the surface of the key because keys ore often cut on site, removing any plating from the edge.

Some bmw motorcycles use steel keys - many locksmiths can't cut them because they are too hard for their machines.

Even relatively soft steel is quite a bit harder than brass.

 

[Gunner3456]

Some bmw motorcycles use steel keys - many locksmiths can't cut them because they are too hard for their machines.

True. Even some old skeleton keys are plated steel and they don't have to be cut and therefore don't rust.

Even relatively soft steel is quite a bit harder than brass.

Of course and that's why steel cartridges don't seal the chamber as well as brass does, and you get carbon build up. That's why quality ammo is made with the more expensive brass.

That's also the reason that steel casings are so much harder to reload than brass - much harder to resize with a die. (not counting what type of primer they need.)

Nothing to disagree with you here....

 

[cyborg]

Gunner,

Bro, you are clearly very into this subject and I applaud your level of knowledge and enthusiasm.

I apologize for my less than scientific responses to this question but let me simplify all of what I am trying to say.

Even soft steel cases are harder than brass and as such, I Believe, will wear your extractor MORE than brass.

Seems logical to me.

 

[Gunner3456]

Gunner,

Bro, you are clearly very into this subject and I applaud your level of knowledge and enthusiasm.

I apologize for my less than scientific responses to this question but let me simplify all of what I am trying to say.

Even soft steel cases are harder than brass and as such, I Believe, will wear your extractor MORE than brass.

Seems logical to me.

"Seems logical" and "is scientific" are two different things.

When you dish out bad info for people, just admit it. Give it up.


From Wikipedia: Link


"Despite popular misconception, steel-cased ammunition does not increase wear on the chamber or extractor of firearms. This is because the steel used in cartridge cases is mild steel which is very soft in comparison to the type of steel used in firearm components.

Also, steel cases are often given a thin coating of lacquer or polymer, so there is no direct steel-to-steel contact with the chamber.

 

[cyborg]

Gunner,

I hope you are not suggesting that the info you are dispensing is substantially more scientific than my own. You are quoting a Wikipedia site which clearly states at the top.....

"This article needs additional citations for verification."

...and the only references listed are a story from commondreams.org about the US buying a lot of this Russian Ammo for Afghanistan which in no way supports your claim that steel cases do not wear extractors faster than brass.

....the only other reference is an article written by an unnamed contributer at boxoftruth.com. He and his friend "Tman" have done "a lot of shooting" and included some pics relating to the fouling problem associated with steel casings. BUT "Tman" and his writer friend say NOTHING about extractor wear being more or less substantial with steel casings.

So, you are quoting a Wikipedia site and it's unsubstantiated claims that steel does not wear your extractor more than brass.

Maybe we should ask "Tman" to specifically look into this issue before we continue? BTW I never claimed to be giving solid scientific facts....I hope you are not going to.

 

[Gunner3456]

The chamber fouling caused by steel not instantly conforming to the chamber like brass does will over time make extraction more difficult. I believe I already said that it can even cause a case to stick eventually. This alone is hard on extractors but not because of wearing against the very soft steel, per se.

I broke an extractor on an AR-15 which had only ever had brass in it.

Tell ya what. Since it's important to so many people here to save money by buying steel cased ammo, I'd suggest that anyone who's worried pay ten bucks for a new extractor and keep it handy. They are really easy to replace.

The ammo savings, for those to whom it is important, will very quickly pay for the extractor.

See, you're talking to a whole group here to whom it's important to know the truth. Money for ammo is important to most people. The last thing you want to do is to give out incorrect info which might inadvertently handicap some people's ability to shoot as much.

Perhaps you might spend your time contacting the Russians and the Polish and... and warn them that after 500,000 rounds the extractors in their machine guns are likely to break, caused solely by the harder steel in their cases.

After all, they've been using billions of rounds of steel ammo forever and need to know that! Don't just limit your knowledge to this forum. Help folks out.

 

[Tastes like Chicken]

I've shot LOADS of steel cased ammo with no issues. IMO...an old wives tale.

As mentioned above....buy an extra extractor and have fun.

 

[seth0941]

Food for thought. for $100 you can replace the entire bolt carrier group in an AR. How many rounds will you need to shoot assuming that the steel case ammo wares parts out faster? Thousands... now, How much money will you save by shooting cheaper ammo? Hundreds! so... if you are just punching wholes on paper, why not use cheap ammo? I shoot steal case ammo when I am just plinking, I have never broken an extractor.

Just my 2 cents.