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Herters 7.62x39 brass case, soft point, hard jacket

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by The Heretic, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I have read that the Herters ammo for 7.62x39 is just repackaged russian ammo (wolf, tulammo, et. al.).

    That referred to the steel case ammo - I thought.

    I am on the lookout for inexpensive expanding self-defense ammo to buy in bulk for 7.62x39, 5.56x45 and 7.62x51

    I was in Cabelas today and noticed they had some Herters brass soft point ammo for 7.62x39, the brass case has a headstamp of "herters" so I bought a single 20 rd box, thinking this might be an exception.

    I get home and I am doing some research on this ammo, and I see a vid where a guy is testing 154 gr. SP projectiles that come in the steel case Herters ammo (I could see the Tulammo headstamp on it) and he found that the jacket on the projectile was thick steel, probably copper plated.

    So I found a magnet, and sure enough, this stuff is steel jacket.

    I should have known better. :mad:
     
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  2. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Oh well, you only bought 20 and it's probably good reloadable brass.
     
  3. WAYNO

    WAYNO Oregon City Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    The plot thickens.:)

    My Mini 30 will not reliably ignite berdan primed ammo, so I only use brass cased, boxer primed ammo. I bought a bunch of PPU soft-point 7.62x39, which is absolutely great ammo, and is not magnetic. Sells for $9.49 per twenty when bought online. Not as cheap as steel cased commie ammo, but still far cheaper than domestic ammo.

    P1020556_zps4t7fswnl.jpg
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*******************************************************************************

    I also recently bought some soft point S&B ammo that was marketed in a Herters box. It was the lighter, 123 gr(?) I just went to my ammo cabinet to check if it was magnetic, but I can't find this ammo. Maybe I shot it all.o_O I'll keep looking, cuz I want to know too.

    Update...I found this ammo, and the bullets are magnetic! Caused me to do some more research, and this, in-part, is what I found...


    This ammunition is loaded by Sellier & Bellot, one of the world's oldest, most-respected manufacturers, renowned for its affordable and reliable cartridges. They're made using high-quality powders, bullets and primers to ensure consistent feeding and hard-hitting accuracy. Herter's Select-Grade rifle ammo is available in a large selection of centerfire calibers. These new-manufacture reloadable cartridges are ideal for target shooting and hunting. Contains steel.




    WAYNO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  4. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The ammo will shoot fine I am sure.

    But if you use it for hunting or self-defense, I doubt it will be any better than FMJ.

    No more Herters ammo for me - if I can't trust them to at least sell what they are marketing then I can't trust them at all.
     
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  5. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Well maybe you should shoot a deer with it to find out.. or some wetpack.
    I remember reading in the American Rifleman of some big time professional hunter in Africa using 7.62 Nato 150gr ball (legal at that time where he was) on all sorts of plains game. Worked like a champ due to tumbling.
    It would be legal for you to use it since it's not FMJ so why not? If it tumbled it'd all be moot anyway, especially for "defense" or thin skinned game.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm fairly sure standard 7.62x39 tumbles.. which probably kills better than a classic expanding hunting bullet.
     
  6. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    And for "defense", not much "works" better than standard 5.56/55gr ball. It penetrates less than most handguns through wall or tissue because of its speed and it reliably tumbles upon impact. A wicked little number.
     
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  7. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I think I'd rather be hit with the 5.56 then the 7.62 if I had to choose but I agree the 5.56 is a great "indoor" round.

    I have a case of Russian 7.62 labeled for Hunting and is 124g HP (the glorified FMJ type).

    I guess if they are close enough you can drop anything/anyone with shot placement.
     
  8. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    A 7.62x39? That's debatable. What are you trying to accomplish.. or are you just trying to be the princess on the pea?
     
  9. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Plenty of Russians hunting moose with an old SkS.
     
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  10. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    And American "subsistence hunters".. with FMJ.. to good effect. Anything that moves.
     
  11. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong though. I did not mean any sort of slight. Not all ball/FMJ will tumble.. which might be good depending upon what you are trying to do..
    anyway
     
  12. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    There was a pro hunter in Africa who used some variation of a 7MM with FMJ to hunt some thick skinned game, but I don't think he used it on everything - IIRC.

    My use for the ammo is self-defense - especially SHTF self-defense.

    It would not be for in-house defense. I have a shotgun and various handguns for that. Even immediately outside the house, the shotgun is probably better than the 7.62x39 rifle as I have neighbors within 100 yards.

    But for SHTF, I want expanding ammo, not FMJ, not non-expanding ammo whether it is "soft point" or not. I believe expanding ammo to be more effective than FMJ and I am willing to pay the extra for that capability, just as I don't load my semi-auto pistols with FMJ for self-defense either.

    At the same time, given the firearms I use the 7.62x39 ammo in, I don't need MOA precision - it just isn't going to do me any good as those firearms will never shoot any ammo to anywhere near MOA accuracy.

    At this point, I will probably buy some Hornady SST 7.62x39 ammo (steel cased, but copper jacket/lead core projectiles) for about 56 cents per round and call it good.
     
    Joe13 likes this.
  13. Steve M

    Steve M Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    That would be Karamojo Bill with brain shots on bull elephants with a 7x57. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._Bell#Big_game_hunter

    In a SHTF situation you'd need headshots unless you know your bullets will tumble reliably at the distances/velocities that you'll be shooting.
     
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  14. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Ok, I have to disagree here.

    Say I have a .22mag rifle and your my enemy 40-100 yards out.

    If I only get one hit on your torso and it's a gut shot - are you still going to try and continue engaging or are you going to stop fighting and go try to get help before you bleed out or go septic? You could certainly keep fighting under those conditions but in SHTF I highly doubt anyone shot anywhere with any caliber with any type of ammunition will continue to storm your castle.

    If you want one shot kills then move to a 50bmg for SHTF. People bleed out fast even if your aim is off and you only take an arm off;)
     
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  15. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    The military had to change the rifling rate so that the newer heavier bullets will tumble. Before they did that they'd have to shoot the enemy multiple times.. before they ran away to have tea and crumpets.
    The old school 55 grainer would wallop them good, as history shows.. due to it tumbling.
     
  16. Steve M

    Steve M Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Mostly I was trying to support the idea that a non-tumbling FMJ isn't terribly effective in the short term and getting it to tumble requires a specific combination of projectile, twist rate, and velocity as well as a target not so gaunt with starvation that the bullet will tumble before exiting. Simply tossing your favorite .224" FMJ into your AR doesn't automatically equate to violently tumbling bullets in your target.

    In a SHTF situation the average person or two will go running away at the slightest sign of force from your .22 magnum. If I was foraging in your back yard and you gut shot me with a .22 magnum it probably would be fatal in the long term as SHTF typically means no advanced medical capabilities. But I'd be asking myself if I was just going to take my lumps for trespassing and crawl off to die slowly and painfully or if I was going to start throwing XM80 into your cover in an effort to take you down with me. Ironic that I'd probably chose FMJ too as it can penetrate a fair amount of cover and all I'd need to do it hit you too and not need a quick kill.

    My own notions of a possible SHTF situation are "the big one" where average people are trying to get by till services can be restored months later or a well equipped hostile force attempting to destroy our country. In either case I see room for a variety of ammo and cannot say I'd only stock one type or another. But if forced to choose one I'd load up on Nosler Partition.
     
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  17. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of people underestimate or are ignorant of the terminal ballistics of some ball rifle rounds.
    It's generally not like FMJ handgun ammo at all.. unless it doesn't tumble.. and there are quite a few of those.. at least historically.
     
  18. nwwoodsman

    nwwoodsman Vernonia Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    Herters x39 is the only ammo I have ever had a squib with. Won't touch the stuff again.
     
  19. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I am not ignorant of it. I have read a lot on terminal ballistics and a lot of research has been done on FMJ military ammo, especially 7.72x39 and 5.45x39.

    I know it can kill. I have a case of it and then some.

    I am trying to get more effective ammo though, expanding ammo, and I don't appreciate it when a mainstream vendor sells "soft point" ammo that won't expand because they were too cheap to use copper jackets and used thick steel jackets instead. :mad:
     
  20. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Hey I hear ya, man.
    I've mainly only used 5.56 for varmints and have pretty good faith in 55gr ball for "larger" varmints (not little "true" varmints).. websites such as The Box of Truth etc. show just how dynamic/little penetration is realized with common fmj military rifle rounds.. they generally penetrate less than common handgun calibers.. especially fmj's or cast lead.
    anyway, just trying to help