National Having a gun shipped as a gift?

[joshkk]

Greetings, all!

I keep my eyes on this site's classifieds for potential guns that my brother, who lives out of state, might like. If there was ever a handgun that I wanted to give him as a gift, is there a legal way for me to pay the seller directly and have them ship it to his local FFL, out of state, for him to do the paperwork, keeping me out of it other than the payment? I'm trying to make sure that I would be staying on the right side of the law in terms of who is "the actual buyer" of the firearm, but also trying to avoid the expense and paperwork of first transferring it to my name here in Oregon only to turn right around and ship it out of state myself. Or is it more kosher for me to ruin the surprise element of a gift and have my brother just pay the seller himself, then just give him a birthday check for that amount? Any other info or input I should know about a scenario like this?

Thanks,
Josh

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[salmon creek gary]

My reply isn't going to help you navigate the troubled legal waters. That's because I don't have the answer and don't even want to research it. Instead, here's what I would do if I ever wanted to surprise my brother in Wisconsin with a handgun gift:

I'd send him a happy birthday card and enclose a picture of the handgun and a check to cover the purchase and associated tax & fees. It would be a total surprise to him, and I wouldn't have to worry about either of us going to prison.

 

[Member 34319]

Personally, if you were to approach me with this sort of transaction, I'd outright say no thanks!

From a sellers perspective, it might save you a lot of explaining and headache to buy the gun yourself first. Complete a 4473. Then it is yours, and you can sell it or gift it however you like.

Then ship it to your brother, since it is now your property, to a FFL and another 4473.

The iffy part about your deal, is that the firearm is never in your possession. It never becomes your property to sell or give as a gift. That's were things get mucky if you ask me.

 

[wired]

Have the seller take it to a dealer. Dealer transfer it to the shop then mails it to the other dealer in brothers state. You never fill out a 4473. He fills out a 4473. Legal and easy since the dealer shipping is by usps and cheaper.

 

[joshkk]

Thanks for the responses!

Others: Does Wired's response above seem legally sound? That is the sort of scenario I had hoped to arrange.

-Thanks,
Josh

 

[bbbass]

Thanks for the responses!

Others: Does Wired's response above seem legally sound? That is the sort of scenario I had hoped to arrange.

-Thanks,
Josh

What you risk, and what the seller risks, is being accused of a "straw man purchase". The laws clearly state that the purchaser of the firearm must not be purchasing it for another. Therefore, the whole "gift" thing becomes iffy. Most of us have either sent the money, or sent the actual firearm directly in order to avoid the potential for any hassle. If I was a seller, I wouldn't allow you to pay for an item for another.

 

[Dinglenutz]

What you risk, and what the seller risks, is being accused of a "straw man purchase". The laws clearly state that the purchaser of the firearm must not be purchasing it for another.

I've bought several firearms as gifts and had them delivered to Oregon for my dad and my brother. They then filled out the 4473 and it was their firearm. The way it was explained to me is that it's in no way a strawman purchase, since the final person in possession is the one who completed the 4473 and received the transfer. The government (or the ATF) doesn't really care how much of whose money paid for the firearm, what they care about is if the transferee is the real possessor of the firearm.

AFAIK the ATF doesn't deal in ownership, they care about possession.

IANAL and the above is not advice.

 

[bbbass]

I've bought several firearms as gifts and had them delivered to Oregon for my dad and my brother. They then filled out the 4473 and it was their firearm. The way it was explained to me is that it's in no way a strawman purchase, since the final person in possession is the one who completed the 4473 and received the transfer. The government (or the ATF) doesn't really care how much of whose money paid for the firearm, what they care about is if the transferee is the real possessor of the firearm.

AFAIK the ATF doesn't deal in ownership, they care about possession.

IANAL and the above is not advice.

I guess actual experience trumps supposition. It's just that I've met some pretty jumpy FFLs that didnt' want to do unusual procedures.

 

[Dinglenutz]

It's just that I've met some pretty jumpy FFLs that didnt' want to do unusual procedures.

There is the danger that I might be using dad to do a strawman purchase, and in that case I'd be asking him to receive the gun and then after the fact he might give it to me. If he did that, it would be a strawman purchase, and he would potentially be in dutch. Also, the FFL wouldn't want to be involved in this. The FFL dad and my brother use believed (correctly) this was a legitimate gift and proceeded as such.

It's very possible not all FFL's would do this, but as far as I know no actual laws were broken.

I did try to look into it very carefully. What I found was that the ATF cares about possession, not money. The crime isn't where the money comes from, it's potentially in who ends up possessing the firearm.

 

[titsonritz]

Have the seller take it to a dealer. Dealer transfer it to the shop then mails it to the other dealer in brothers state. You never fill out a 4473. He fills out a 4473. Legal and easy since the dealer shipping is by usps and cheaper.

This. No reason to over complicate it.

 

[titsonritz]

There is the danger that I might be using dad to do a strawman purchase, and in that case I'd be asking him to receive the gun and then after the fact he might give it to me. If he did that, it would be a strawman purchase, and he would potentially be in dutch. Also, the FFL wouldn't want to be involved in this. The FFL dad and my brother use believed (correctly) this was a legitimate gift and proceeded as such.

It's very possible not all FFL's would do this, but as far as I know no actual laws were broken.

I did try to look into it very carefully. What I found was that the ATF cares about possession, not money. The crime isn't where the money comes from, it's potentially in who ends up possessing the firearm.

and this.

 

[titsonritz]

I guess actual experience trumps supposition. It's just that I've met some pretty jumpy FFLs that didnt' want to do unusual procedures.

To hell with their "unusual procedures", I don't play games and refuse to allow them to do it to me, I will walk out of their door flying the one finger salute and never walk back in.

BTW gifting firearms to family members is legal even in Commie Oregon so long as said family member isn't prohibited.

 

[Alexx1401]

Thanks for the responses!

Others: Does Wired's response above seem legally sound? That is the sort of scenario I had hoped to arrange.

-Thanks,
Josh

Yes, the seller is sending the gun to an FFL. The FFL is transferring the gun to the person on their end. This means the person getting the gun is passing a background check. The only downside here is cost. By the time you pay the seller to do this, pay the FFL fee's, that gun is going to get expensive. Be a LOT easier to just give him the money to buy the gun he wants where he lives.

 

[Alexx1401]

I've bought several firearms as gifts and had them delivered to Oregon for my dad and my brother. They then filled out the 4473 and it was their firearm. The way it was explained to me is that it's in no way a strawman purchase, since the final person in possession is the one who completed the 4473 and received the transfer. The government (or the ATF) doesn't really care how much of whose money paid for the firearm, what they care about is if the transferee is the real possessor of the firearm.

AFAIK the ATF doesn't deal in ownership, they care about possession.

IANAL and the above is not advice.

When my parents were alive and living in another state I did this. Wanted to give Dad a gun for Fathers day. Went with him to store, ordered gun and paid for it. Told them who it was for, they said no problem will call when it arrives. Dad was filling out the forms in his state to take his gun home. No one cared.

 

[wired]

Yes, the seller is sending the gun to an FFL. The FFL is transferring the gun to the person on their end. This means the person getting the gun is passing a background check. The only downside here is cost. By the time you pay the seller to do this, pay the FFL fee's, that gun is going to get expensive. Be a LOT easier to just give him the money to buy the gun he wants where he lives.

Depends what it is. Theres a lot of unique or hard to find guns out there that the brother might not find on his end. If I paid for a gun as a gift at a dealers place I'd expect him to be able to ship it for $14 to another dealer in a priority mailer to another dealer as he is legally allowed to. No transfer fees on my side. Only on the recipients side. I wouldnt use a dealer that charged more than $25 to transfer a gun so total transfer costs are going to be under $40. There is a layer of separation as its in another state that would make a potential charge of straw buying laughable.

 

[Alexx1401]

Depends what it is. Theres a lot of unique or hard to find guns out there that the brother might not find on his end. If I paid for a gun as a gift at a dealers place I'd expect him to be able to ship it for $14 to another dealer in a priority mailer to another dealer as he is legally allowed to. No transfer fees on my side. Only on the recipients side. I wouldnt use a dealer that charged more than $25 to transfer a gun so total transfer costs are going to be under $40. There is a layer of separation as its in another state that would make a potential charge of straw buying laughable.

Yes now that is certainly true. If wanting to gift something hard to come buy it may be worth jumping through the pricey hoops to get it to the person. As for cost seems to depend on where you live. Many places seem to have little choice and pay what seem to be really high prices. Guess some places the dealer kind of has people over a barrel if there is little or no competition sadly.
If it was me I would still just give the cash to brother when I see the gun. Point him to where I see it let him do it rather than try to contact the buyer with the story we see here. Even though totally legal you already see how many here are scared to death just mentioning this. Give Bother the money when you see the gun, let him contact seller to have it sent to his FFL. Brother will know it was a gift, seller will not have to get all scared someone is trying to pull something on him. Some get super scared when it comes to selling a gun any more and it does not help there is so much made up info floating around

 

[Member 34319]

Seems like it's doable, just lots of arrangement.

If I was the OP I would have a conversation with a local FFL and go from there.

 

[joshkk]

Thanks everyone, lots of good insights here to consider.

-Josh

 

[TTSX]

I don't see how it should matter who pays for a gun so long as the actual owner fills out their 4473

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Greetings, all!

I keep my eyes on this site's classifieds for potential guns that my brother, who lives out of state, might like. If there was ever a handgun that I wanted to give him as a gift, is there a legal way for me to pay the seller directly and have them ship it to his local FFL, out of state, for him to do the paperwork, keeping me out of it other than the payment? I'm trying to make sure that I would be staying on the right side of the law in terms of who is "the actual buyer" of the firearm, but also trying to avoid the expense and paperwork of first transferring it to my name here in Oregon only to turn right around and ship it out of state myself. Or is it more kosher for me to ruin the surprise element of a gift and have my brother just pay the seller himself, then just give him a birthday check for that amount? Any other info or input I should know about a scenario like this?

Thanks,
Josh

I'd give the check personally. You can gift someone a check for them to purchase a gun for themselves with no Imperial entanglements.