Full length sizing/Neck sizing.....

[Mikej]

The "Full length resizing?" and "Neck sizing only?" threads have been of interest to me, so I've got some questions for specific rifles.

At this point I've processed/loaded several thousand hand gun rounds in several calibers. I'm doin' it the old fashion way, single stage, with an RCBS Rock Chucker. I have a good feel for it and it's been enjoyable and rewarding. Now that I have a couple of old 100+ YO bolt rifles I will, at some point, be loading for them. First up will be the 1902 Swede Mauser. With handgun ammo you pretty much full length size all straight wall cases. Sizing makes the brass grow. Roll crimped brass needs to be uniform in length so it likely gets trimmed. Talking once or thrice fired range brass here. Never loaded new brass.

When it comes to the Swede. Will my once fired by me in my Swede, quality, brass need to be full length sized? If not, it means that the brass springs back enough that it will chamber, after re-loading, with only a neck size? The Swede head spaces on the shoulder(?), that would mean with the bolt face firmly against the case head when firing that a bump-back of the shoulder on sizing would not be needed?

Now, on to the SMLE BSA 1918 Enfield.....Same questions pretty much. Ammo is pretty cheap for that at $9.95/20 non-reloadable. So there's that to consider whether or not I'll ever reload for that. In some reading there have been people saying that chambers were very loose in these rifles to accommodate the filth and mud during WWI. That would indicate to me the .303 brass would likely need full length sizing after firing? where as the Swede head spaces on the shoulder it looks like the Enfield's head space on the RIM?

One other thing, after shooting that Enfield I noticed that there was some resistance when ejecting the empty brass after firing using German, MEN, surplus 1983 vintage rounds. A dependable source has told me it's good stuff. And no noticable resistance when chambering.

Eventually I plan on loading for the AR .223 also. But with the good Black Friday prices for ammo I've moved even farther into the future with that possibility.

This might seem a redundant thread, but putting it on paper, so to speak, seem to give me a better picture.

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[DizzyJ]

Bolt action rifles often you can get away with neck sizing only. I've done it more than once.

Semi-autos, you need to full length size every time for reliability.

I'm torn between the two. Mostly I just full length resize. However, I make sure the inside of the neck is lubricated, otherwise you're more likely to "pull" the neck out of alignment when the sizing button gets pulled back through.

I also often use a sizing mandrel for the I.D. after full length sizing, to help avoid the afore mentioned issue that can occur.

Realize that when neck sizing only, you can vary the ID (which is what gives you your neck tension) based on variations of neck thickness. Therefore many people will cull the brass ahead of time or neck turn.

Lots of things to know/consider when you decide to neck size only.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I only use fl sizing dies, but they are set so i get .003" shoulder set back. IF I do end up lubing the inside of the neck, it's with graphite. This isnt an everytime every case scenario though. Only as needed. Im picky about trimming my brass to suggested trim length, and also chamfering the inside and outside of the necks. Properly setting up your seating die has far more influence on concentricity of your loaded ammo. With run of the mill RCBS dies, i attain .003" and under TIR.

 

[41mag]

Don't know about others but in decades of range use of all straight wall revolver cases never found trim length needed. Also, rarely with 45 acp.

I know my 45LC most often tolerated 12 or more reloading cycles with minimal issue.

 

[Mikej]

Don't know about others but in decades of range use of all straight wall revolver cases never found trim length needed. Also, rarely with 45 acp.

I know my 45LC most often tolerated 12 or more reloading cycles with minimal issue.

Trying to roll crimp when brass length varies by .007 = I like consistency, and varying brass lengths don't make for consistent roll crimps.

Bolt action rifles often you can get away with neck sizing only. I've done it more than once.

Semi-autos, you need to full length size every time for reliability.

I'm torn between the two. Mostly I just full length resize. However, I make sure the inside of the neck is lubricated, otherwise you're more likely to "pull" the neck out of alignment when the sizing button gets pulled back through.

I also often use a sizing mandrel for the I.D. after full length sizing, to help avoid the afore mentioned issue that can occur.

Realize that when neck sizing only, you can vary the ID (which is what gives you your neck tension) based on variations of neck thickness. Therefore many people will cull the brass ahead of time or neck turn.

Lots of things to know/consider when you decide to neck size only.

I was talking to a guy at Fisherman's about this. I'm slowly wrapping my mind around this. It helps to write it out too. The guy said he neck sizes only for his Rem 700 in .30-06 with no issues. Seems to me if a person is neck sizing only and the finished round chambers with VERY LITTLE to NO drag when chambering that you would be golden in this situation? Easier on the brass isn't it?

 

[41mag]

Back in the days I shot 308FL XP100 in IHMSA, over multiple seasons and managed to do well enough with neck size only. Eventually as my older brass was relegated to 'practice brass' with multiple multiple reload cycles, the shoulders did get a bit testy.

I don't have enough experience with other reloaded rifle brass to make any comment worth reading.

 

[DizzyJ]

Trying to roll crimp when brass length varies by .007 = I like consistency, and varying brass lengths don't make for consistent roll crimps.



I was talking to a guy guy Fisherman's about this. I'm slowly wrapping my mind around this. It helps to write it out too. The guy said he neck sizes only for his Rem 700 in .30-06 with no issues. Seems to me if a person is neck sizing only and the finished round chambers with VERY LITTLE to NO drag when chambering that you would be golden in this situation? Easier on the brass isn't it?

Generally I've found once the straight walled pistol brass is of uniform length, it doesn't really change in length to a great degree.

There's a lot of things to consider when neck sizing only. Eventually the brass will need to be full length resized.

Once you understand runout, case thickness variation, neck tension, etc and how they interplay, then you'll start to understand what neck sizing does and how it can affect the end result of accuracy and reliability. One can neck size without understanding all of those things, but when accuracy degrades, or doesn't improve, it's important to understand why, and what can be done to remedy it.

Do you by chance own any precision reloading manuals?

I have one in particular I'd recommend if you don't.

 

[Mikej]

Back in the days I shot 308FL XP100 in IHMSA, over multiple seasons and managed to do well enough with neck size only. Eventually as my older brass was relegated to 'practice brass' with multiple multiple reload cycles, the shoulders did get a bit testy.

I don't have enough experience with other reloaded rifle brass to make any comment worth reading.

It makes sense that you would have to full length resize eventually. I would figure chamber dimensions of various rifles would have something to do with when a full resize would be appropriate/needed.

 

[Mikej]

Do you by chance own any precision reloading manuals?

I own reloading manuals, and I have a good understanding of loading but have only done hand gun ammo. Interesting you bring up accuracy. I'm shooting a 116 YO rifle, with little itty bitty sights. If I get a 6" group at 100 yards with MY eyes, I'm pretty damned excited! The Enfield with it's sites at 50 yard I was getting 3". At this point I'm going for proper technique and getting on paper. I'll have to make up some loads and give those a try first.

 

[DizzyJ]

I own reloading manuals, and I have a good understanding of loading but have only done hand gun ammo. Interesting you bring up accuracy. I'm shooting a 116 YO rifle, with little itty bitty sights. If I get a 6" group at 100 yards with MY eyes, I'm pretty damned excited! The Enfield with it's sites at 50 yard I was getting 3". At this point I'm going for proper technique and getting on paper. I'll have to make up some loads and give those a try first.

Hit me up if you want a suggestion for a good book on precision loading.

 

[ron]

I started reloading pistol caliber in 1981. I reload for 38 spl/357, 44 mag, 9 mm and 45 acp.
and rifle calibers 223, 308, 30/06, 8 mm, 30 carbine and 7.5X55 Swiss.
Several thousand 45 acp and 9 mm annually for competition and practice. I have
never trimmed a pistol case. I full length size all rifle calibers with RCBS dies.
Adjust rifle sizer die for a minimal shoulder bump back using RCBS Precision Mic. For 30/06
I set the shoulder back to what new ammo measures. Since I own several different
rifles chambered in 30/06. I do not crimp rifle loads for better accuracy. I shoot
semi auto rifles AR, M-1, and M-1A and have no problems with bullets pushing back
into case. Ammo cost is not the only consideration. Do you want it to go bang or
do you want to hold the 10 ring? Cheap factory ammo is not match grade. You can reload much more accurate ammo than cheap factory ammo.

RCBS Precision Mics - RCBS

 

[DizzyJ]

I started reloading pistol caliber in 1981. I reload for 38 spl/357, 44 mag, 9 mm and 45 acp.
and rifle calibers 223, 308, 30/06, 8 mm, 30 carbine and 7.5X55 Swiss.
Several thousand 45 acp and 9 mm annually for competition and practice. I have
never trimmed a pistol case. I full length size all rifle calibers with RCBS dies.
Adjust rifle sizer die for a minimal shoulder bump back using RCBS Precision Mic. For 30/06
I set the shoulder back to what new ammo measures. Since I own several different
rifles chambered in 30/06. I do not crimp rifle loads for better accuracy. I shoot
semi auto rifles AR, M-1, and M-1A and have no problems with bullets pushing back
into case. Ammo cost is not the only consideration. Do you want it to go bang or
do you want to hold the 10 ring? Cheap factory ammo is not match grade. You can reload much more accurate ammo than cheap factory ammo.
View attachment 527244
RCBS Precision Mics - RCBS

Curious why you use that particular tool vs a caliper with insert Ron?

I've contemplated those, but have stuck with the afore mentioned method/tool.

 

[ron]

This Hornady Bullet comparator are you referring to? This measures more consistently
bullet seating depth measuring off the bullet ogive verses bullet tips which are not
consistent. The RCBS Precesion Mic measures off the case shoulder. Measure
a fired case and adjust the sizer die to bump back the shoulder .002~.003".

 

[DizzyJ]

This Hornady Bullet comparator are you referring to? This measures more consistently
bullet seating depth measuring off the bullet ogive verses bullet tips which are not
consistent. The RCBS Precesion Mic measures off the case shoulder. Measure
a fired case and adjust the sizer die to bump back the shoulder .002~.003".
View attachment 527476

Yes. I use the Hornady inserts on a pair of calipers for measuring both off the ogive of the bullet, and also an insert for measuring base to shoulder.

Just curious why you prefer the mic compared to the calipers with inserts.

 

[ron]

I can measure a piece of brass or a loaded round with the Precesion Mic. Also
seems to be more accurate method. I use the Hornady to measure bullet
seating depth I do not have the ogive inserts. Does this work with a loaded round?

 

[DizzyJ]

I can measure a piece of brass or a loaded round with the Precesion Mic. Also
seems to be more accurate method. I use the Hornady to measure bullet
seating depth I do not have the ogive inserts. Does this work with a loaded round?

I believe it does work with a loaded round, but now you've got me curious. Might depend on the cartridge and how far out the bullet is seated. Pretty sure I've measured fully loaded .223 rounds on the shoulder at least. Not sure I've checked any of the others loaded.

Usually I'm checking the base to shoulder PRIOR to it being loaded up when I'm doing the resizing process, making die adjustments or verifying said adjustments.

I've got the insert pack from Hornady and they seem to work very well for me. Both for base to ogive and base to shoulder.

 

[Goosebrown]

do not ever put a loaded round in a die and squish it. It sounds like old guy wisdom but putting a loaded round in a device that looks a lot like a chamber adds a risk.

If you consider that every accident occurs because multiple events conspire to allow it to happen, then removing any part of that event chain is a good thing.

I have 200 204s now that are hard to chamber. They need a shoulder bump. I will shoot them all and then work with the brass next time I reload.

I asked the same thing

 

[DizzyJ]

do not ever put a loaded round in a die and squish it. It sounds like old guy wisdom but putting a loaded round in a device that looks a lot like a chamber adds a risk.

If you consider that every accident occurs because multiple events conspire to allow it to happen, then removing any part of that event chain is a good thing.

I have 200 204s now that are hard to chamber. They need a shoulder bump. I will shoot them all and then work with the brass next time I reload.

I asked the same thing

Did someone recommend doing this?

 

[Goosebrown]

Did someone recommend doing this?

I was going to bump the shoulder on loaded 204s that I had not shoulder bumped. Before I did it I asked a very well respected gunsmith and he brought up that it was like a loaded round in a chamber at that point. Probably not an issue but if there is something it would be catastrophic

I thought of doing all by myself...

 

[DizzyJ]

I was going to bump the shoulder on loaded 204s that I had not shoulder bumped. Before I did it I asked a very well respected gunsmith and he brought up that it was like a loaded round in a chamber at that point. Probably not an issue but if there is something it would be catastrophic

I thought of doing all by myself...

I've actually heard of people doing this. You need to remove the bullet seating stem and go very slowly and cautiously if attempting. Not sure if it's something I'd feel comfortable with though I have decapped live primers....