Do you have a light on your EDC firearm?

[leadcounsel]

Yeah, you've mentioned crash helmets a few times. If you don't like WML's good for you. But to say they are "not needed" is just your opinion. And we all have those so you do you.\

BTW, what do helmets, TBI's and your linked article have to do with WPL's? Seems like just a bunch of BS off-topic filler to me......

I'm merely pointing out the "gear focused" silliness that some people rely upon. People buy up useless gear without any critical thinking involved because of some - let's say vivid imagination - of needing it. Look at the stats.

In America, odds of dying:
Violent crime is 5 in 100,000. And dramatically lower if you avoid major inner cities and night-time. Goes down to something like 1 in 100,000.

However, look at cardio and heart disease. The #1 killer. Most people, hell including myself, could stand to work out a bit more and get in better condition. These types of silly internet arguments about nothing actually detract from all of us fighting against THE most certain likely killer. It ain't a boogy man in the dark - it's fat and overweight.

And I raise crash helmets as the other - far less sexy but far more likely survival tool. Car crashes and and falling are FAR more likely to kill you than the lack of a WML...

Top 10 causes of death in the USA. None are violent crime. None are failure to have a WML. The top 10 leading causes of death in the United States

In decades of gun ownership, carrying a gun as a civilian, reading gun articles, watching and reading self defense - NOT ONE TIME have I read or heard of or become aware of anyone ever needing to rely on a WML. Contrast that with heart disease, or car accident or falling death...

Folks spend far too much time on the next cool-guy gear, and not enough on realistic scenarios. Anyway, I'm out. Done said my piece. Maybe I'll go do some crunches and pushups.

 

[Kruel J]

I'm merely pointing out the "gear focused" silliness that some people rely upon. People buy up useless gear without any critical thinking involved because of some - let's say vivid imagination - of needing it. Look at the stats.

In America, odds of dying:
Violent crime is over 5 in 100,000. And dramatically lower if you avoid major inner cities and night-time. Goes down to something like 1 in 100,000.

However, look at cardio and heart disease. The #1 killer. Most people, hell including myself, could stand to work out a bit more and get in better condition. These types of silly internet arguments about nothing actually detract from all of us fighting against THE most certain likely killer. It ain't a boogy man in the dark - it's fat and overweight.

And I raise crash helmets as the other - far less sexy but far more likely survival tool. Car crashes and and falling are FAR more likely to kill you than the lack of a WML...

In decades of gun ownership, carrying a gun as a civilian, reading gun articles, watching and reading self defense - NOT ONE TIME have I read or heard of or become aware of anyone ever needing to rely on a WML. Contrast that with heart disease, or car accident or falling death...

Folks spend far too much time on the next cool-guy gear, and not enough on realistic scenarios. Anyway, I'm out. Done said my piece. Maybe I'll go do some crunches and pushups.

Nice, while doing those please find a better way of bringing all of your off-topic topics around to relate to a light mounted to a gun.

 

[No_Regerts]

I work hard for my money. I don't like to squander it on needless stuff. I also carry enough stuff every day. A WML is just one more item to buy, to service, and to carry. Like many others, my EDC system already pulls at my belt... I'm personally reluctant to waste the hard earned money, to carry around more stuff that's harder to conceal, when it's entirely pointless. And redundant if one already carries a flashlight. If you have a taclite, which most do and carry, and a light on your phone, you have 2 lights to use (granted the phone light isn't practical for defensive use, but for general visual aid).

I'm not inclined to add a THIRD light to my daily inventory when I can barely justify needing one...

At work, I carry 3 lights. One thats always in my pants pocket (one in the pic above), a high ouput surefire on my vest, and a low output pen light for checking IDs and crap like that. During night fire training, its crazy how much stuff gets dropped when rounds are going both ways. The WML is a failsafe that is worth the money, to me at least. Besides, I shoot Glocks and M&Ps and a $269 x300 Ultra only brings me uo to $700 total. Less than a metal framed Sig.

 

[Edward Hull]

To combat TBI's the CDC recommends you wear a seatbelt. They don't mention helmets. Seatbelts first, follow the speed limit second, don't drink&drive third, don't text&drive fourth, don't get hit by a car fifth and so on.

And you still don't seem to grasp the concept of how kids change the dynamic of using a gun and a handheld flashlight vs a WML, but I'll give you a moment to ponder it.

 

[No_Regerts]

I'm merely pointing out the "gear focused" silliness that some people rely upon. People buy up useless gear without any critical thinking involved because of some - let's say vivid imagination - of needing it. Look at the stats.

In America, odds of dying:
Violent crime is 5 in 100,000. And dramatically lower if you avoid major inner cities and night-time. Goes down to something like 1 in 100,000.

However, look at cardio and heart disease. The #1 killer. Most people, hell including myself, could stand to work out a bit more and get in better condition. These types of silly internet arguments about nothing actually detract from all of us fighting against THE most certain likely killer. It ain't a boogy man in the dark - it's fat and overweight.

And I raise crash helmets as the other - far less sexy but far more likely survival tool. Car crashes and and falling are FAR more likely to kill you than the lack of a WML...

Top 10 causes of death in the USA. None are violent crime. None are failure to have a WML. The top 10 leading causes of death in the United States

In decades of gun ownership, carrying a gun as a civilian, reading gun articles, watching and reading self defense - NOT ONE TIME have I read or heard of or become aware of anyone ever needing to rely on a WML. Contrast that with heart disease, or car accident or falling death...

Folks spend far too much time on the next cool-guy gear, and not enough on realistic scenarios. Anyway, I'm out. Done said my piece. Maybe I'll go do some crunches and pushups.

If we are going on statistics alone, you'd never carry. Most self defense shootings are at home.

 

[No_Regerts]

To combat TBI's the CDC recommends you wear a seatbelt. They don't mention helmets. Seatbelts first, follow the speed limit second, don't drink&drive third, don't text&drive fourth, don't get hit by a car fifth and so on.

And you still don't seem to grasp the concept of how kids change the dynamic of using a gun and a handheld flashlight vs a WML, but I'll give you a moment to ponder it.

My bedside light becomes a toy quite often, but gosh darnit, the gun in my pants always has a light for when the streamlight powers the jack'o'lantern!

 

[leadcounsel]

Nice, while doing those please find a better way of bringing all of your off-topic topics around to relate to a light mounted to a gun.

Let me summarize then if you can't connect the dots. Waste of money preparing for an event that will never ever occur (nobody can cite a single civilian use) for which another tool isn't cheaper, better, more versatile, and already on your person... may as well carry around a blowgun too in case you have to take out sentry dogs.

 

[Kruel J]

Let me summarize then if you can't connect the dots. Waste of money preparing for an event that will never ever occur (nobody can cite a single civilian use) for which another tool isn't cheaper, better, more versatile, and already on your person... may as well carry around a blowgun too in case you have to take out sentry dogs.

I never was good at connect the dots.

 

[No_Regerts]

Let me summarize then if you can't connect the dots. Waste of money preparing for an event that will never ever occur (nobody can cite a single civilian use) for which another tool isn't cheaper, better, more versatile, and already on your person... may as well carry around a blowgun too in case you have to take out sentry dogs.

Can you give me a statistic on when a civilian ever used a handheld? Its an insignificant detail amongst the major event that occurred (the shooting).

All sorts of videos of police shootings using a light. To say that no circumstances of a police shooting transfer to the average Joe is false.

 

[leadcounsel]

If we are going on statistics alone, you'd never carry. Most self defense shootings are at home.

Incorrect. A pistol in or outside the home is a #1 crime deterrent, and the mere presence of a pistol without even firing a shot is estimated to deter violent criminal attack up to 2 million times per year. This was the conclusion by scientist John Lott who studied this and published a couple books and many articles on the topic. I've read the book and highly recommend it. "More Guns, Less Crime." by John Lott.

Owning and carrying a handgun makes sense at ANY costs. Because the reality is that there is violent crime and one should have the tools to protect against it. If the 5 in 100,000 figure above confused you, that is the number of deaths. Not the number of attempts, attacks, rapes, robberies, etc. Being armed is probably one of the top civil responsibilities in my view.

Our quarrel is merely about the utility of a civilian needing (as some here seem to vehemently insist without any evidence to support it) a WML. I say it's unnecessary, as I've never seen/read/heard of a situation that necessitated it for a civilian. We ain't chasing suspects, detaining people, serving warrants, prowling around in darkened alleys and back yards, etc.

 

[Kruel J]

Incorrect. A pistol in or outside the home is a #1 crime deterrent, and the mere presence of a pistol without even firing a shot is estimated to deter violent criminal attack up to 2 million times per year. This was the conclusion by scientist John Lott who studied this and published a couple books and many articles on the topic. I've read the book and highly recommend it. "More Guns, Less Crime." by John Lott.

Owning and carrying a handgun makes sense at ANY costs. Because the reality is that there is violent crime and one should have the tools to protect against it. If the 5 in 100,000 figure above confused you, that is the number of deaths. Not the number of attempts, attacks, rapes, robberies, etc. Being armed is probably one of the top civil responsibilities in my view.

Our quarrel is merely about the utility of a civilian needing (as some here seem to vehemently insist without any evidence to support it) a WML. I say it's unnecessary, as I've never seen/read/heard of a situation that necessitated it for a civilian. We ain't chasing suspects, detaining people, serving warrants, prowling around in darkened alleys and back yards, etc.

Where did anyone "vehemently inist"?

 

[leadcounsel]

Can you give me a statistic on when a civilian ever used a handheld? Its an insignificant detail amongst the major event that occurred (the shooting).

All sorts of videos of police shootings using a light. To say that no circumstances of a police shooting transfer to the average Joe is false.

I just used a flashlight an hour ago, to go into my crawl space. No not a statistic but an anecdotal example of the fact that all I needed was a hand held flashlight. No WML needed.

Cops have them and they are a valuable tool. Every single police shooting where a light was deployed that I've seen involved the police officer serving a warrant, detaining a suspect, entering a dangerous darkened area (room, house, yard, alley, warehouse, etc.), traffic stops at night and needing to see inside a vehicle, etc. And even then, about 1/2 the time they are using a handheld light.

In my civilian life, I don't do any of these things, nor would I need to. I don't wander into crack houses, dark alleys, detain people, conduct traffic stops and so forth.

I'm still waiting for some real world realistic scenario, example etc. so that I know what to train for when I go buy a WML. How can I know what to train for if nobody can give me a scenario?? How is everyone "training" with their WMLs if nobody can enrich us with a scenario?

 

[Kruel J]

Cops have them and they are a valuable tool. Every single police shooting where a light was deployed that I've seen involved the police officer serving a warrant, detaining a suspect, entering a dangerous darkened area (room, house, yard, alley, warehouse, etc.), traffic stops at night and needing to see inside a vehicle, etc. And even then, about 1/2 the time they are using a handheld light.

In my civilian life, I don't do any of these things, nor would I need to. I don't wander into crack houses, dark alleys, detain people, conduct traffic stops and so forth.

I'm still waiting for some real world realistic scenario, example etc. so that I know what to train for when I go buy a WML. How can I know what to train for if nobody can give me a scenario??

I think plenty of scenarios were given, especially from @No_Regerts but if you are looking for statistics I think you'd be hard pressed to find a chart that specifies if a WML was used. As far as my civilian life, I sure try to avoid all of those things, but I also live life and can't say that I'll never wander into a dark alley, even if by mistake. You seem to be the one taking a hard and fast stance AGAINST WML's while the rest of us here are just suggesting that they may not be a bad idea.

 

[leadcounsel]

I don't really care one way or another what others do I'm merely pointing out that I don't and my analysis as to why.

If I were to wander into an alley, which I don't do, but if I did, I'd probably already have my flashlight out so I can see. Can you not see a problem with drawing a gun in a public alley when there is no threat???

 

[Edward Hull]

Follow me if you will. I have a young child. I held him most of the time when he was very small or transported him in a car seat with a handle. I hold his hand most times when we are in transitional spaces because I don't want him to run out in front of a car and get a TBI or worse. I can draw a gun and hold him at the same time. I could not operate a handheld flashlight, hold him, and draw a gun. Kids change things. Grandkids change things. Elderly people change things. Wounded people change things. It is very easy to be in a situation where you don't get to use both hands like you are thinking you will. Please seek training where these things will become apparent.

Look, if you don't like a WML that's fine. If you think the 350-400 dollars will get you farther down the road being invested in ammo rather than a WML that's fine too. If you think there is no way a WML could possibly ever help you fine, but I can demonstrate to you without a doubt that you are wrong. However, I don't want to win this debate if it means you have to lose. Why don't we go to a range and see if my points hold water?

 

[No_Regerts]

I don't really care one way or another what others do I'm merely pointing out that I don't and my analysis as to why.

If I were to wander into an alley, which I don't do, but if I did, I'd probably already have my flashlight out so I can see. Can you not see a problem with drawing a gun in a public alley when there is no threat???

Why would you draw without a threat? Where is anyone saying they woud draw without a threat?

Say you are carrying groceries, or any number if things you'd do with that hand, like call 911, and you have to give up something to make that happen and still control your threat...or you can turn on the wml and still see and keep your gun drawn.

 

[leadcounsel]

Follow me if you will. I have a young child. I held him most of the time when he was very small or transported him in a car seat with a handle. I hold his hand most times when we are in transitional spaces because I don't want him to run out in front of a car and get a TBI or worse. I can draw a gun and hold him at the same time. I could not operate a handheld flashlight, hold him, and draw a gun. Kids change things. Grandkids change things. Elderly people change things. Wounded people change things. It is very easy to be in a situation where you don't get to use both hands like you are thinking you will. Please seek training where these things will become apparent.

Look, if you don't like a WML that's fine. If you think the 350-400 dollars will get you farther down the road being invested in ammo rather than a WML that's fine too. If you think there is no way a WML could possibly ever help you fine, but I can demonstrate to you without a doubt that you are wrong. However, I don't want to win this debate if it means you have to lose. Why don't we go to a range and see if my points hold water?

Help me indeed. I"m thoroughly confused.

So, in this scenario, how did total darkness just fall on you? In the USA, that has literally never occurred to me. Even power outtages in public offer some ambient light somewhere, assuming it's night-time. Buildings have backup power, etc. And why don't you already have ambient or active light out and being used. Or do you normally just draw your gun in public if the lights are off? That seems unsafe.

So you're just standing there and total darkness hits with no warning? So, you are in the dark but someone can see you and decides to attack you? I'm confused. If it's dark then nobody can see you so why are they attacking you? If they can see you due to ambient light, then why can't you see them to ID a threat and shoot back? Also, it seems holding a child (effectively using him as a human shield) and engaging in a gunfight is putting a child in incredible danger. Would it not be safer to put the child down and step away, as you engage in a gunfight, at least under some circumstances?

I'm trying to create this scenario but struggling... it sounds like a bad script to a zombie movie, and not reality. You're out at night with your child and the lights everywhere instantly go out and you don't have time to draw any light source. Then suddenly someone in the dark identifies you and attacks you but you need a light to shoot back??

 

[Edward Hull]

Help me indeed. I"m thoroughly confused.

So, in this scenario, how did total darkness just fall on you? In the USA, that has literally never occurred to me. Even power outtages in public offer some ambient light somewhere, assuming it's night-time. Buildings have backup power, etc. And why don't you already have ambient or active light out and being used. Or do you normally just draw your gun in public if the lights are off? That seems unsafe.

So you're just standing there and total darkness hits with no warning? So, you are in the dark but someone can see you and decides to attack you? I'm confused. If it's dark then nobody can see you so why are they attacking you? If they can see you due to ambient light, then why can't you see them to ID a threat and shoot back? Also, it seems holding a child (effectively using him as a human shield) and engaging in a gunfight is putting a child in incredible danger. Would it not be safer to put the child down and step away, as you engage in a gunfight, at least under some circumstances?

I'm trying to create this scenario but struggling... it sounds like a bad script to a zombie movie, and not reality. You're out at night with your child and the lights everywhere instantly go out and you don't have time to draw any light source. Then suddenly someone in the dark identifies you and attacks you but you need a light to shoot back??

Nevermind, you're right.

 

[Kruel J]

Why would you draw without a threat? Where is anyone saying they woud draw without a threat?

Say you are carrying groceries, or any number if things you'd do with that hand, like call 911, and you have to give up something to make that happen and still control your threat...or you can turn on the wml and still see and keep your gun drawn.

If I draw, there is certainly a threat. Luck have it I've only had to draw a couple of times, and the presentation made the situation resolve itself.

I guess my final thoughts are when someone says a WML is pointless after so many examples are given as to how they are and can be an advantage troubles me and makes me wonder why anyone would be so close minded. No offense to anyone here.

 

[leadcounsel]

Why would you draw without a threat? Where is anyone saying they woud draw without a threat?

Say you are carrying groceries, or any number if things you'd do with that hand, like call 911, and you have to give up something to make that happen and still control your threat...or you can turn on the wml and still see and keep your gun drawn.

Why am I carrying groceries in the dark? I push a shopping cart of groceries thru a well lighted parking lot. Both my hands are free. If the lights went out, I would have been using a flashlight. One hand is free.

When I arrive home, if the exterior lights are all out only on my home, it will be suspicious and I won't go home, and I'll assess and perhaps call the cops. If somehow all the lights are out in my neighborhood, I'll go inside, both hands are free, and get a headlamp and return to get my groceries.

These are softballs. Come on guys. Where is the real training for me to get a WML and get with the WML program to see the need to spend the money and time on this new gear...?