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Other State Dangerous but disarmed: How Florida has confiscated thousands of guns

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Reading the article if it presents the various cases truthfully I didn't read about anyone I would want access to a firearm. And as there is due process prior to the order and within a few days of the order being carried out this seams to be a logical way to help prevent someone from killing.
 
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Reading the article if it presents the various cases truthfully I didn't read about anyone I would want access to a firearm. And as there is due process prior to the order and within a few days of the order being carried out this seams to be a logical way to help prevent someone from killing.
There is no due process when the standard to take away guns is a preponderance of the evidence which is fancy lawyer speak for "pure guess". The way this is usually presented is to think about the scales of justice. Put a feather in one pan. THAT is a preponderance -- a feather's weight of evidence over flipping a coin.


preponderance.png
 
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I agree. Taken at face value, those actions seem to be appropriate. i'm kinda surprised that the term is only 1 yr.
The most certain method to eliminate a Constitutional right without any of that pesky amending or whatever, is to find a few example cases that are hard to support, go after those people first, get yourself a precedent, and then do what you really want, which is to be an authoritarian Constitution burning prick.

For example, in the mid 70s the police did some sloppy work regarding a purse snatching stalker (who can support such a person?). They decided to just ask the phone company for some phone records instead of getting a warrant. Nobody, not even the SCOTUS wants to see the jerk get off because of the lack of a warrant, and so after some back flips about the 3d party exception blah blah blah, conviction affirmed. Fast forward 35ish years, Smith v. Maryland is part of the so called legal authority the NSA uses to monitor and collect all telephone communications of all Americans. How a Purse Snatching Led to the Legal Justification for NSA Domestic Spying

So, whenever you think "wow, that guy does deserve it no matter what the Constitution says" -- well, you are throwing away your own rights because if there is one certainty in the universe, the Government never only limits its exertion of power to those who deserve it -- they eventually get to you too.
 

SpongeRock

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Consider this reporting of only a select handful of instances where ERPO’s were filed out of hundreds or thousands - these are the ones many people would say are reasonable. The fact remains that no due process exists and as such it could happen to you or I despite no laws being broken, no criminal charges made. It is this reason alone I oppose ERPO’s. Are there people out there that shouldn’t possess firearms but do? Yes, and until we as a country consistently enforce existing laws, ERPO’s will not make any meaningful impact on reducing homicides.
 
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... it could happen to you or I despite no laws being broken, no criminal charges made. ...
Yep -- no crime at all: Florida Man Lost His 2A Rights, Thanks To Red Flag Laws And Mistaken Identity

And here's that "due process" they tout:

============= Excerpt from above link ==========
Carpenter had never met the woman in question and never lived at the address listed in the restraining order. Moreover, other than being white, he looked nothing like the man the terrorized the woman.

The man in question is 5'8. Carpenter is 5'11. The alleged drug dealer is 110lbs. Carpenter is over 200. The man has black hair. Carpenter is completely bald. Last but not least, the man in question is covered in tattoos, and Carpenter only has a few.

Even though it was evident they had the wrong man, Carpenter was forced to hand over his firearms. There was no hearing or any kind of court proceeding.
 

Elf

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There is no due process when the standard to take away guns is a preponderance of the evidence which is fancy lawyer speak for "pure guess"
I agree with the overall point that seizing your property and infringing on your rights under the 2nd amendment should require proof beyond a reasonable doubt of some sort of intent to use the guns illegally and violently.

I disagree, perhaps somewhat pedantically though, about characterizing preponderance of the evidence as a "pure guess." A pure guess would be more equivalent to mere suspicion or articulable suspicion on the following scale:
  • Mere suspicion - A belief that is not founded in authenticable fact
  • Articulable suspicion - A suspicion that you can rationally explain
  • Probable cause - More than suspicion but less than concrete proof; enough to arrest someone but not enough to convict
  • Preponderance of the evidence - Based on presented evidence, "more certain than not" (i.e. greater than 50% certain)
  • Beyond a reasonable doubt - The evidence would leave a (subjective) "reasonable person" no doubt of the claim (i.e. 95-99% certainty)
A "preponderance of the evidence," of course, is the standard used in civil cases and requires more than just a guess, but a demonstration of evidence that is more than the other side presents.
 
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bbbass

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Regardless of "evidence" presented, of which there is only witness statements, judges are not taking a chance. They will grant the ERPO rather than whatever chance there is that the "accused" might act out with their firearm(s).

And when one cannot appear in court to present counter testimony prior to the ERPO being granted, and one cannot face his accuser, and one cannot appeal to a jury of one's peers.... how is that "due process"? Appearing in court after the firearms are confiscated, to BEG for their return is hardly due process.


Guilty until proven innocent.
 

Elf

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"Guilty until proven innocent" I think sums up how these ERPO / Red Flag laws work, although there isn't really a good avenue to prove yourself innocent either, so I guess you could describe it as "Guilty without trial."

Sadly "guilty until proven innocent" is also how the process works for claiming legitimate self defense, as an affirmative defense against murder/manslaughter/assault charges.
 
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Reads like pure fabrication for limp wrist propaganda purposes. The kind of piece that gets the idle, angry know it all feminist housewives in my neck of the safe white suburbs seething with self righteous anger.
 
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...
  • Preponderance of the evidence - Based on presented evidence, "more certain than not" (i.e. greater than 50% certain)
...
I get your point but think about it this way: Flipping a fair coin will result in 50% heads and 50% tails. Whether its heads or tails is a pure 50/50 chance. Now, if you have an unfair coin that lands on heads 5001 times out of 10,000 -- that is a preponderance. A mechanical device could probably make that measurement, but the fact is, it's so close to 50/50 that in human perception, any slight tilt one way or the other is imperceptible. Thus, I think it is totally fair to say that a preponderance is basically as good as flipping a coin. Wasn't there a cop who got fired for that? And yet we let our Constitutional rights depend on essentially the same thing!

Secondly, when looking at something subjectively -- as humans do -- extraneous factors will come into play. A judge who says "there's a preponderance here" is not going to get run through the wringer -- rather, the opinion will be given great deference. But that judge is certainly thinking: "If I reject this ERPO, and this guy does something, I can kiss my a__ goodbye." That fear will skew judges into finding a preponderance, which being just better than a coin flip, will be easily upheld.

Nobody is going to win these ERPOs.
 

Dyjital

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Sometimes I wonder how many in here have been baselessly accused and have been stripped and put under scrutiny just to have their accuser recant their story the day of trial with no recourse...only to cost the innocent thousands in lawyers fees.

I’ll raise my hand first to start the count off.

Shall we take a poll? Innocent until proven guilty, not just for those we agree with.
 
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It's much easier and cheaper to store inanimate mechanical objects that have no rights compared to citizens who do have rights. Firearms aren't protected by the 6th Amendment (speedy trial) and the usual requirement that a person can only be held 48-72 hrs. without a formal charge.

Not to mention, if someone is truly in crisis or an actual threat, and LEO's show up, confiscate their firearms, and leave, how does that deal with the real issue, ie. the PERSON?:rolleyes:

As we're seeing from the crossing guard situation, a waitress eaves dropping on and misinterpreting a conversation is all it takes...Pretty soon someone who 'feels' that you cut them off to get a parking stall, sees your NRA bumper sticker and they'll be calling you in...

And don't forget, this isn't going to be convenient...a person will be spending $$ on attorney's, likely having to get time off work (explain to boss/lawyer), and all the other related issues involved as well..

Boss
 

bbbass

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If Red Flag type laws were Constitutionaly valid, Mothers Against Drunk Driving would've used them years ago.
Arresting drinkers at home, at the tav/bar, etc, BEFORE they drive... becuz, you know, they MIGHT drive, or they'd be likely to drive, according to a preponderance of the evidence, such as having car keys in their pocket, a car in the driveway/parkinglot............................. WHAT A CONCEPT!!!
 
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How many ERPO's get denied? By the time it gets to court, probably not many, if any. Based on the one mini-documentary I've seen on YT, it reported the particularly police agency in the video had received about 5,000 ERPO requests, and moved forward with ~30 of them. So doing the math, 4970/5000...in other words, only about 99.4% of the requests were basically deemed not actionable/illegitimate.

What could possibly go wrong?:rolleyes:

Boss
 

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