Communist Heresy: Norinco's M305A M14 in 7.62x39mm

[B5Ben]

Trade disputes with the United States[edit]
In 1993, the import of most Norinco firearms and ammunition into the United States was blocked under new trade rules when China's permanent normal trade relations status was renewed. The prohibition did not apply to sporting shotguns or shotgun ammunition however. In 1994, U.S. Customs agents conducted a sting against Atlanta based importers of Norinco firearms.[3]

In August 2003, the Bush Administration imposed sanctions on Norinco for allegedly selling missile-related goods to Iran.[4] These sanctions led to a prohibition on imports into the US of the remaining types of firearms and ammunition not covered by the 1993 ban.[5][6]

Norinco - Wikipedia

 

[Boboclown]

I was going to link to the EO, but Bill made a lot of them in 1993 and 1994.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Only thing that is calling me is the receiver sights!

 

[raftman]

Proof? The fact that they won't even allow temporary imports of Chinese guns for hunting reasons. This is <CHINESE> made guns specifically. Any other rifle can be imported, as long as it isn't made in China. Is it from China? No, next question. Is it considered an assault weapon and as such cannot be imported (hint, this is why AKs have to be converted in the United States)? No, then follow proper paperwork and procedure.

Again, to reiterate what has been said, CHINESE guns (shotguns and black powder rifles being the exceptions) cannot be imported regardless of where its being imported from. It is not a ban on importing from China, its a ban on the guns made in China.

You can, for example, import something like a Yugoslavian Mauser (as N example) from Canada. Importing a Chinese rifle? No dice. Not gonna happen. Been denied before, will continue to be denied due to the ban

Proof? The fact that they won't even allow temporary imports of Chinese guns for hunting reasons. This is <CHINESE> made guns specifically. Any other rifle can be imported, as long as it isn't made in China. Is it from China? No, next question. Is it considered an assault weapon and as such cannot be imported (hint, this is why AKs have to be converted in the United States)? No, then follow proper paperwork and procedure.

Again, to reiterate what has been said, CHINESE guns (shotguns and black powder rifles being the exceptions) cannot be imported regardless of where its being imported from. It is not a ban on importing from China, its a ban on the guns made in China.

You can, for example, import something like a Yugoslavian Mauser (as N example) from Canada. Importing a Chinese rifle? No dice. Not gonna happen. Been denied before, will continue to be denied due to the ban.

You sound a bit angry and condescending, have some chamomile tea or something. I was just asking a question. The article I linked does seem to address your objection. It states that one requirement from the US side is certified-as-authentic documentation that the firearm hasn't come from or even been in a proscribed nation (e.g. China?) in the last 5 years. This suggests that so long as you can certify to their satisfaction that the firearm has been in Canada for at least 5 years, it may be doable. But that would be only one step in what is otherwise still a long, costly, complicated process.

 

[Boboclown]

You sound a bit angry and condescending, have some chamomile tea or something. I was just asking a question. The article I linked does seem to address your objection. It states that one requirement from the US side is certified-as-authentic documentation that the firearm hasn't come from or even been in a proscribed nation (e.g. China?) in the last 5 years. This suggests that so long as you can certify to their satisfaction that the firearm has been in Canada for at least 5 years, it may be doable. But that would be only one step in what is otherwise still a long, costly, complicated process.

Angry? No. Condescending? Maybe. Irritated? Anyone who has to repeat himself will get irritated eventually.

Chinese munitions are not allowed, the ATF will tell you this if you try it. It does not matter where it came from, or how long its been there. This Chinese M14 in 7.62x39 is considered munitions by virtue of being a semiautomatic rifle.

The ATF denied paperwork on Chinese guns before, they'll keep doing it. They'll cite the ban each and every time. You can cross every t and dot every i, and the ATF WILL say keep saying no.

 

[Boboclown]

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

This in addition to an EO done by Bill Clinton said no more Chinese guns. Shotguns and black powder rifles are exempt by not meeting the requirement of being munitions.

 

[Brutus57]

I have ordered a BOGO deal on these through Hillary's Hassle Free Law Dodging Firearms Import & Uranium Export Company LLC.

When filling out the Forms I simply circled What Difference does it make? Portion of the docs.

Brutus Out

 

[Boboclown]

... Sad part is that's almost believable considering Hillary.

 

[raftman]

Angry? No. Condescending? Maybe. Irritated? Anyone who has to repeat himself will get irritated eventually.

LOL why? You don't have to repeat yourself, you choose to repeat yourself... to then get irate about it seems a little childish.

I tried to find the Clinton EO but wasn't able to find where it would rule out the supposed exemption I cited. The CFR link you posted made no reference to China.

I followed the citations in the Wiki excerpt above but again found no sufficient details whatsoever. Basically I have the word of an article apparently written by a guy who is in the business against a guy on a forum who basically says, "nuh uh, cuz I said so! See: here's a link that doesn't really address the subject."

 

[Boboclown]

Then let me make it easier. The link I posted was a law that defines munitions. This Chinese m14 in 7.62x39 is by definition a munition, as would the parts for it would be considered munitions. Being a semiautomatic rifle, firing a cartridge .50 cal or under, it is by definition a munition. China is one of the countries where we can't have munitions from. "A link that doesn't address the issue" when in fact it does. It addresses that this rifle is considered a munition by definition.

Shotguns and black powder guns do not meet the definition of munitions, that's why Chinese shotguns can be imported but rifles can't.

Importing a Norinco M14 from Canada to USA? - Survivalist Forum Discussed here. ATF denied a form 6 when a FFL tried it, and the ATF will also deny temporarily bringing one in.

To reiterate, ATF WILL tell you its a no go if you try, regardless of where its coming from.

You can bring other guns from Canada, ATF will not let you bring the Chinese guns. Not even temporarily.

 

[Boboclown]

Clinton Outlines Program Aimed at Human Rights in China : Asia: The President sets forth five ways to push for improvements. Action is part of his new campaign to better explain Administration's foreign policy to Americans.

Btw, one of the five points in this article is the banning of importing Chinese guns and ammo. Again, shotguns and black powder guns are exempt by virtue of not being munitions.


The link you posted is irrelevant, Chinese rifles can't come in from anywhere. ATF will say no, ATF has already said no, and the ATF will not even allow it to be brought in temporarily if you were traveling to the U.S to hunt with it.

 

[raftman]

I'm not sure why you don't seem to understand. A Chinese M14 is a munition? So what? So is every other semi-auto rifle firing .50 cal and under. It seems like the article I posted is suggesting if it's been in Canada long enough, you'd NOT be importing it from China, you'd be importing it from Canada at that point. Where in official writing is that exemption closed? Oh some guys on a different forum think so? Well then I withdraw my objection.

The forum posts don't even address this either and neither does the LA Times article.

 

[Boboclown]

Because Chinese munitions are illegal to import. Shotguns are not munitions, its in the link I posted earlier that explains the definition of munitions. Its not just a ban on importing from China, its a ban on the munitions from China (as in made in China). Regardless of how long its been in Canada, its still made in China. Thus, Chinese munitions, and as such illegal. ATF will deny it. They denied it before, they'll do it again, and they'll cite the ban.

* Banning the import of Chinese guns and ammunition.

In the article, directly.

And yes the forum posts do address it. One even states a FFL tried to bring in a Chinese M14 from Canada, and the ATF denied the application citing the ban. Meaning, the ATF won't allow it. Either you're being dense, or you're trolling.

 

[Boboclown]

Proscribed Countries – Importation of firearms (other than sporting shotguns), ammunition (other than sporting shotgun ammunition), and munitions list articles originating in certain countries is prohibited.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/g...rearms-ammunition-and-implements-war/download

China is still on the list. Munitions from there can't come in, shotguns are exempt by virtue of not being munitions. So this Chinese 7.62x39 M14 can never come in. It originates from China, no matter how long it stays in Canada its still Chinese in origin.

Again, I should not have to keep reiterating that its illegal. You can't bring them in, you're article clearly states not everything can be brought in from Canada, this ATF article states munitions originating from certain countries are prohibited, the forums I linked to states a FFL was denied trying to bring in a Chinese M14, the Arms Export Control Act defines munitions, the LA article even says directly guns and ammo from China are banned. ATF said no, they'll keep saying no.

 

[raftman]

I'm sorry dude but you're clearly injecting your own interpretations into this. A single incomplete sentence in an LA times article is not a legal document. Remember when CNN said it's illegal for anyone other than them to read Wikileaks? Is that authoritative to you, too? The LA Times doesn't even mention shotguns being exempt, so why are you acting like it's the end all be all on the subject? If they don't care (or don't know) to report on the shotguns, can we expect them to report about even rarer circumstances?

The forum does NOT address this; that is your own inference again. It's been said a guy tried it, was denied. That's it. It doesn't specify whether he crossed all his t's and dotted his i's. Nor can you even guarantee it's a true story. It's like saying you know a guy who said he failed his driving test in certain model of car, therefore getting a driver's license for people with that kind of car must be impossible.

It should also be worth noting both your forum post and the LAT article are older sources than mine. My article stating certain things just can't be imported no matter what specifies they mean. They mean on account of factors such as barrel length and features as specified in GCA 68, for example. These guns would be illegal to import no matter where they come from, even if they were originally from the US and coming back from elsewhere. If anything this bolsters my argument in that it suggests actual place of origin actually can be rendered irrelevant under some circumstances.

 

[Boboclown]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/g...rearms-ammunition-and-implements-war/download

Page 15. Read it. I dug through my bookmarks which alone is a PITA. This is the second time I've posted it now. You asked for proof, I provided it. Clearly states munitions from certain countries are not allowed. Excluding shotguns, because those are not munitions.

Whether or not you can bring back U.S manufactured firearms is irrelevant to the original discussion, as that's a subject of features banned from import, not origin of said gun. This is a subject of Chinese guns not being allowed to be imported.

Why am I "acting" like its the end all for Chinese guns not being allowed? Because it is, the ATF flat out says so in the link. It even states shotguns are excluded (and further down says black powder guns do not count).

If you want to argue and say its my interpretation, that's fine if it was the case. However, that is not the case. The ATF says it can't be done, and as such it can't be done.

 

[Boboclown]

To be more specific, page 15 of the PDF. Page 6 of the article.

 

[KKG]

All I can say is I'm Very Glad to have destroyed as many AK-47s and SKSs as I did when I had the chance. I guess the Only thing I am sad about is that I wasn't able to destroy any more than I did.

 

[djharteloo]

Thats a neat rifle. I'd take one for the collector's benefit. Also makes me wish that Mini 30's used standard AK mags.

 

[raftman]

Did some additional research, specifically where the "5 year rule" came from. It appears we're both partly wrong. The idea that Chinese firearms other than shotguns are always a no-go is in fact wrong. But 5 the year rule applies apparently only to milsurp/c&r guns so in the case of specifically this gun, it will probably never happen. Additionally, if I understand the linked ATF guidance correctly, not only must a gun not have been in a proscribed country in the last 5 years, but if manufactured in one, there should be proof that it was manufactured before the country was proscribed. So theoretically a Chinese milsurp that made into Canada (or any non-proscribed country) before the ban would actually be ok. So some guns yes, this one no.

"Pursuant to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. § 925(e), a Type 08 or 11 FFL may import SMCR firearms into the United States pursuant to an approved ATF Form 6 import permit. When seeking a permit to import a SMCR firearm, a licensed importer must attach the following documentation to his or her ATF Form 6 application:

• Original documentation (such as warehouse receipts or other documents which provides the required history of storage) attesting to where the firearm has been located for the five-year period immediately preceding importation. The firearm cannot have been in a proscribed country or area at any time during that five-year period. 27 CFR § 447.52(e) (2). The importer should obtain this documentation from the foreign source (foreign seller, family member, etc.) of the firearm.

Example of Foreign Source Document Language:

"I (insert name of foreign source) attest that I have possessed the (insert the specific firearm by manufacturer's name and address, type, caliber, model designation, and serial number if known) as described in items 8(a)-(k) on the completed ATF Form 6) in (insert the name of the country in which the firearm was stored) since (insert date acquired)."

• If the SMCR firearm to be imported was manufactured in a proscribed country or area, original documentation attesting that the firearm was manufactured in that country or area prior to date, as established by the Department of State, the country or area became proscribed. 27 CFR § 447.52(e) (1).
  
• A statement from you, the applicant, executed under the penalty of perjury, certifying that the Form 6 application, and all documents attached to it, are true, correct and complete."

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