Can anyone tell me about these two old scopes, please?

[tac]

They came in a box of old scopes, including a few that I've kept - Weavers from El Paso days. They are both ~x4, quite clear and with a thick and thin crosshair. The 'base' has the 'Ward 93M 2115A' stamped on it.

An acquaintance of mine here in UK is jonesing after one or both with a view to making up a replica side-mount for one of his numerous genuine Whitworth rifles [], and I'm wondering it they are up to taking the stresses involved.

Your advice, identifications and opinions would be gratishly received.

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[3MTA3]

They came in a box of old scopes, including a few that I've kept - Weavers from El Paso days. They are both ~x4, quite clear and with a thick and thin crosshair. The 'base' has the 'Ward 93M 2115A' stamped on it.

An acquaintance of mine here in UK is jonesing after one or both with a view to making up a replica side-mount for one of his numerous genuine Whitworth rifles [], and I'm wondering it they are up to taking the stresses involved.

Your advice, identifications and opinions would be gratishly received.

View attachment 1206164

The only thing I could find was information on the base, A similar number match on a gun auction. It appears that the firearm it was attached to was made by Mossberg and sold through Montgomery Wards, a one time major US department store chain. Unfortunately, nothing on the scopes.

"You are bidding on a Wards Western Field, Model 93M-211A, bolt action, magazine fed (3 rd.), .410 Ga., 3", Full Choke (?) shotgun. This shotgun was manufactured by Mossberg (Model #83B) from 1933-1946. This would be an excellent shotgun to control those pests and vermin in your garden (Where Legal!!)or train a Beginning Shooter. Barrel is ~24" long. Overall Condition is very good with very light handling marks on the wood. Bluing finish is thinning overall w/light rust patina-flecks on barrel, magazine and receiver. Bore is bright and shiny. Buyer pays $25.00 S&H (AK and HI slightly higher), OK to combine with other auctions for a discount. We ship to FFL Only and accept Postal Money Orders or Bank Certified funds. Payment should be received within 7 days of close of auction. If payment is not received within 10 days, item will be relisted. Negative feedback will be posted for successful bidder who fails to complete the transaction. We offer the usual 3 day (M-F) inspection/ return/refund (less S&H) priviledge. Inspection period begins at the time of delivery to your Dealer.....it is your responsibility to inspect the gun at this time. In case of return, Buyer pays all shipping. Please ask all questions BEFORE you bid. We are not responsible for transfer fees to the Buyer's Dealer. Please see our other auctions....Good Luck Bidding!"​

Western Field Wards- #93m-211a, .410, 3

You are bidding on a Wards Western Field, Model 93M-211A, bolt action, magazine fed (3 rd.), .410 Ga., 3, Full Choke (?) shotgun. This shotgun was manufacture

www.gunauction.com

 

[tac]

That's about as far as I got, too. However, may thanks for publicising your results!

 

[3MTA3]

It may give a clue about the scopes - Mossberg is better known for shotguns but has always made rifles. Ward's was second only to Sears for sales. Perhaps a vintage Ward's catalog site might show that rifle in a combo that includes the same or similar scope?

 

[tac]

It may give a clue about the scopes - Mossberg is better known for shotguns but has always made rifles. Perhaps a vintage Ward's catalog site might show that rifle in a combo that includes the same or similar scope?

Montgomery-Ward catalogues are mighty thin on the ground over here in East Anglia......

 

[Crazyeye24]

That bottom scope looks like the one from my grandpa's service weapon from WWII. I have it on my desk at home, will see what it says but I believe it is a mossberg scope.

 

[3MTA3]

Montgomery-Ward catalogues are mighty thin on the ground over here in East Anglia......

I've been looking for Internet archives along the lines of the one that was done for Radio Shack https://radioshackcatalogs.com/index.htm

I found one that only had clothing, home decorations and things like that. No automotive, lawn and garden or sporting goods.

 

[tac]

I've been looking for Internet archives along the lines of the one that was done for Radio Shack https://radioshackcatalogs.com/index.htm

I found one that only had clothing, home decorations and things like that. No automotive, lawn and garden or sporting goods.

 

[rcnpthfndr]

i came across this, its low info but its a reference that shows your M Wards number and the Mossberg cross reference

Mossberg 22 LR Scope and Mount Cross Reference

 

[tac]

That was very kind of you, and well-meant, but I can't resolve enough of it to get any real info. I'm very grateful that you tried, though.

 

[3MTA3]

That was very kind of you, and well-meant, but I can't resolve enough of it to get any real info. I'm very grateful that you tried, though.

What I got out of it is that the rifle likely came with a 4x scope and the scopes in the background were pretty similar to the scopes you have. If I had to bet the scopes that would have come bundled were likely Weaver possibly under the Western Field brand. That's where I might look next - vintage Weaver scopes.

Some here:

Rifle Scopes - Vintage Weaver

thea.com

EDIT - LOL you said Weaver in the first sentence of your original post. Appears I've run all the way around the world back to the starting point

 

[tac]

What I got out of it is that the rifle likely came with a 4x scope and the scopes in the background were pretty similar to the scopes you have. If I had to bet the scopes that would have come bundled were likely Weaver possibly under the Western Field brand. That's where I might look next - vintage Weaver scopes.

Some here:

Rifle Scopes - Vintage Weaver

thea.com

That's about as much as I have found in ten years or so. Cheap scopes on economy little rifles, available for money or 'grapenuts' package labels. Remember them? We saved about forty million of 'em, and we all got grapenut poisoning, plus projectile s**ts, and finally, after about fifty years we earned enough for a Marlin Model 39A with a x2 scope that my cousin once took off and put on back to front, then wondered why he never hit anything....

 

[3MTA3]

@tac your original question was if the scopes were up to it. Weaver proper has been out of business since the 80's and I can't find any specs. This company repairs and upgrades vintage scopes including Weavers. I would contact them as they should have the expertise to tell you if they are up to it or not

Vintage Gun Scopes

Vintage Weaver, Redfield and other Vintage Rifle Scopes, Guns, scope rings and mounts for sale.

www.vintagegunscopes.com

 

[tac]

@tac your original question was if the scopes were up to it. Weaver proper has been out of business since the 80's and I can't find any specs. This company repairs and upgrades vintage scopes including Weavers. I would contact them as they should have the expertise to tell you if they are up to it or not

Vintage Gun Scopes

Vintage Weaver, Redfield and other Vintage Rifle Scopes, Guns, scope rings and mounts for sale.

www.vintagegunscopes.com

I know about them - I collect old [affordable] Weaver scopes made in El Paso. I've got around twenty of 'em and never paid more than $40 - ever. that company gets to the jun- sorry, antique store just before me, buys 'em all up, gives 'em a bit of a once-over, and then sells them for ten times the price....

They'd laff themselves f*rtless if I ever sent them anything.

BTW, here's one of my $25 Weaver K4s on a K31 - mount courtesy of my friends Pierre and Latigo at Swiss Products, Kalispell MT -



and here's an old 3-9 zoomer [a whole $40-worth from a LGS in Gold Beach OR] -

 

[Randy A]

I know this is a couple months old but those are Wollensak scopes. Someone has removed the japanning from one of course. They were made for a number of manufacturers, Sears, Montgomery Wards, Marlin, and I believe Mossberg, just to name a few. Sears was the original owner of the design, so very slight differences can be found. The action style mounts were usually marked who made it, but the separate 2 piece Unertl style ones I believe were all one mfr. and I suspect Wollensak, even the Mossberg ones are identical except the base screw in the right side. Some of the scopes has "Wollensak" and "Ranger 4x" on the adjustment plates.

If he's going to use it on a center fire rifle I would recommend the traditional sliding mounts that many of these came with (Unertl style).

Do not spray lense cleaners on the lenses, it will immediately wick into the scope and you'll end up tearing them apart to clean. They're not hard at all to service but be careful and have a large clean work area as everything has to be layed out as it was in order and some of the lenses are directional of course, you have to note which side faced what direction. None that I have seen are duplex or glued lenses. All I've encountered are ground 1 piece glass, so I've been able to use alcohol for cleaning them (sparingly). The objective cell (forward screw and plate) only has one lense, the ocular cell has 4, along with several spacers, all in specific order of course.

Once serviced and together, the forward screw plate locks the fore and aft adjustment of the objective (focus) there is no ocular focus. The rear screw plate (center of scope) is the crosshair, once your focus is set you may need to adjust the crosshairs into focus and a limited amount of plumb adjustment if needed.

 

[tac]

I know this is a couple months old but those are Wollensak scopes. Someone has removed the japanning from one of course. They were made for a number of manufacturers, Sears, Montgomery Wards, Marlin, and I believe Mossberg, just to name a few. Sears was the original owner of the design, so very slight differences can be found. The action style mounts were usually marked who made it, but the separate 2 piece Unertl style ones I believe were all one mfr. and I suspect Wollensak, even the Mossberg ones are identical except the base screw in the right side. Some of the scopes has "Wollensak" and "Ranger 4x" on the adjustment plates.

If he's going to use it on a center fire rifle I would recommend the traditional sliding mounts that many of these came with (Unertl style).

Do not spray lense cleaners on the lenses, it will immediately wick into the scope and you'll end up tearing them apart to clean. They're not hard at all to service but be careful and have a large clean work area as everything has to be layed out as it was in order and some of the lenses are directional of course, you have to note which side faced what direction. None that I have seen are duplex or glued lenses. All I've encountered are ground 1 piece glass, so I've been able to use alcohol for cleaning them (sparingly). The objective cell (forward screw and plate) only has one lense, the ocular cell has 4, along with several spacers, all in specific order of course.

Once serviced and together, the forward screw plate locks the fore and aft adjustment of the objective (focus) there is no ocular focus. The rear screw plate (center of scope) is the crosshair, once your focus is set you may need to adjust the crosshairs into focus and a limited amount of plumb adjustment if needed.

They are both quite clear to view through in spite of being recovered from a trash barrel. I've filed your VERY useful post for future reference - in case I feel brave enough to actually clean them up at some time. I actually have a set of both kinds of Unertl mounts - plain and POSA, so setting them up at any time would not be much of a problem apart from fixing some kind of guide rail to prevent them from rotating.

My pal would like to mount one on a Whitworth rifle - he has five - all the real thing - in a replication of the Col Davidson scope found on some of these rifles in the Confederacy arsenal during your recent civil war. Being a muzzle loader it is not necessarily a hard kicker, but 90gr of 2Fg behind a 565gr bullet produces quite a wallop for an old scope to cope with.

Many thanks again.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

They came in a box of old scopes, including a few that I've kept - Weavers from El Paso days. They are both ~x4, quite clear and with a thick and thin crosshair. The 'base' has the 'Ward 93M 2115A' stamped on it.

An acquaintance of mine here in UK is jonesing after one or both with a view to making up a replica side-mount for one of his numerous genuine Whitworth rifles [], and I'm wondering it they are up to taking the stresses involved.

Your advice, identifications and opinions would be gratishly received.

View attachment 1206164

 

[Randy A]

Since the front lense is recessed inside the tube it's easier to remove the front bezel for sliding on all the mounts on (careful when reinstalling, they cross thread easily). The part you're looking for is called a Pope rib. There are several places that sell them. Hi-Lux sells one but it's a little on the short side and DZ Arms (DZhepburn) also has one that's well built, a little on the spendy side maybe!

A good scope for the muzzle loaders is the Tasco made 1880 (?) replica. Look it up, they were also sold under Cabela's and came with mounts but not micrometer style.

 

[tac]

View attachment 1236624
View attachment 1236625

Them's them!!!! Many thanks!

 

[tac]

Since the front lense is recessed inside the tube it's easier to remove the front bezel for sliding on all the mounts on (careful when reinstalling, they cross thread easily). The part you're looking for is called a Pope rib. There are several places that sell them. Hi-Lux sells one but it's a little on the short side and DZ Arms (DZhepburn) also has one that's well built, a little on the spendy side maybe!

A good scope for the muzzle loaders is the Tasco made 1880 (?) replica. Look it up, they were also sold under Cabela's and came with mounts but not micrometer style.

All good information to have, thank you, Sir!!

I be's a'lookin' for the Tasco version meanwhile, although most sellers these days are a mite unwilling to ship to UK, supposing I found one.

I'm still waiting for MVA to decide whether or not they can sell me an A5 Winchester scope and mounts for my High Wall - two years of dithering does not fill me with hope, TBH.