Calling all AR15 Specialists..Need help on AR15

[spengo]

Just like the myth that ARs are even reliable to begin with....

*ahem*


15000 rounds, no cleaning, still functioning reliably.

 

[jordanvraptor]

I've seen em carbonized so bad it looked like a phosphate finish and it still fired fine.

 

[SSG]

I think since Vietnam it's been pretty clear that you can't count on a dirty M16/AR15 to be reliable...vs AKs...

The problem with Aks is that they aren't nearly as accurate, and the firearm/ammo weighs much more...so you will probably pack less of it, and maybe run out quicker..

Read a study that came out of Korea that stated the average infantry man would wait to engage a hostile at just under 200 hundred yards, given open terrain where they could see them...gives you and idea on what you need for accuracy, what type of round ect: the M14 was developed out of that concept...

Personally I don't think there really is a decent assault rifle out here...HK has a version of the M16, that I think uses the gas piston system...saw it on Future weapons...they through it in a sand box ect...the design was such that it was self cleaning in a sense that with every shot, the carbon, direct ect was pushed out somehow, rather then building up...maybe it's ok...

If you remember the show 'Shoot Out' on the Discovery channel...when that Humvee convoy got lost, went to the wrong town...the one where Jessica L. was famously captured...it was like a 1 hour firefight....and the guy telling story basically said this...

'so there I was, then when SGT X M16 jammed up..he got hit...then when mine jammed up..I picked up another...then when CPL Y M16 stopped functioning...then he got shot...this went on for an hour...they had all the ammo in the world in the Humvees...but when the M16s ALL stopped working was when they got captured...Deja Vu from Vietnam?

Sorry the AR15 Platform is a POS...always has been...I suspect the continued use of this firearm is political and big contractors are involved...

 

[spengo]

I think since Vietnam it's been pretty clear that you can't count on a dirty M16/AR15 to be reliable...vs AKs...

Ok, here's the deal sparky. In Vietnam, M16s were handed out to conscripts with very little training, they were told it was a magical self cleaning rifle and weren't issued cleaning kits. They were then given the nastiest, bubblegumtiest ammunition money could buy (think: cheaper than brown bear). Then they dragged them through muddy jungles. WTF DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. The failures were not the fault of the rifle or the DI system. Today they are plenty reliable.

If you use bubblegum ammunition and never clean your rifle it is going to jam and be a POS regardless of what gun you buy. I've seen plenty of AKs fail because of idiot owners going "HURR NEVER HAVE TO CLEAN AK." The same will happen if you sell both your kidneys to buy an HK416 (which is just another piston AR with the HK logo stamped on it and a screwed up mag well, those two letters are expensive!) and never clean it.

In my personal experience, my AR is actually the most reliable firearm I own. I've shot thousands of rounds through it, I even went 500rds of brown bear without cleaning once just to see if it could do it, I've dragged it through mud and snow at practical rifle, and I *still* haven't had a single malfunction. Not even magazine or ammunition-related failures. I don't even have a very expensive AR, it's just a CMMG. I dunno wtf kind of guns you were using, model 1 sales? olympic arms? something equally terrible? If you ever go looking for an AR again, make sure you get one with a decent bolt carrier group and a properly staked gas key.

Anyone who uses Vietnam as an example of why the M16 sucks is an idort. Oh yeah... and just so you know, the promising "AR replacement" that is probably never going to happen is made by the same company that makes most of our weapons anyway. Namely, FNH and their SCAR. I'd think if there was a big conspiracy going on they'd be getting rid of the M16 for sure.

 

[SSG]

Sure whatever..

You know it's always the AR15/M16 guys that say.. you need to keep your gun clean all the time and use perfect ammo....well after 500 rds your gun isn't clean anymore...so I guess in the middle of firefight, I guess your supposed to stand on the top of a hill, doing the time out signal..telling the Taliban that you need some time to clean your gun, then we can resume killing each other in 10 minutes...

It also doesn't take into account that factory ammo IS Wolf, Bear, LC, and everywhere else...we aren't talking reloads where...so if your gun doesn't run commercially available ammo...well then what are you supposed to do?

'Uh hang on guys...I need to go get some Federal Match...whoops, I guess that doesn't work..You got Remington?...nope my gun doesn't run that...5.56...no sorry, I can only run 223, or it will jam up...Wolf...no..Bear, no...got some PMC...well ok, let's try that...oh yeah, and can't use those mags...not the alluminum ones..the plastic ones are better...but not that brand...yeah that one...ooops that doesn't work hand me another Joe..."

 

[nwo]

*ahem*


15000 rounds, no cleaning, still functioning reliably.

HOLY COW!!! THAT IS AMAZING!

Just a bit more PROOF that the AR platform IS a GREAT system!

Why would you let it go so long without cleaning though? Just WOW!

 

[spengo]

Sure whatever..

You know it's always the AR15/M16 guys that say.. you need to keep your gun clean all the time and use perfect ammo....well after 500 rds your gun isn't clean anymore...so I guess in the middle of firefight, I guess your supposed to stand on the top of a hill, doing the time out signal..telling the Taliban that you need some time to clean your gun, then we can resume killing each other in 10 minutes...

It also doesn't take into account that factory ammo IS Wolf, Bear, LC, and everywhere else...we aren't talking reloads where...so if your gun doesn't run commercially available ammo...well then what are you supposed to do?

'Uh hang on guys...I need to go get some Federal Match...whoops, I guess that doesn't work..You got Remington?...nope my gun doesn't run that...5.56...no sorry, I can only run 223, or it will jam up...Wolf...no..Bear, no...got some PMC...well ok, let's try that...oh yeah, and can't use those mags...not the alluminum ones..the plastic ones are better...but not that brand...yeah that one...ooops that doesn't work hand me another Joe..."

What the **** are you even talking about? No one said anything about only using match ammo or whatever you are saying. PMC, Remington, AE all run fine. It's what I usually shoot. Bear and Wolf run fine too but I prefer not to use steel cased usually just cuz it's harder on the gun, harder to clean afterward cuz it's so dirty, and it smells funny (Russian powder is just weird smelling). Lake City is pretty decent stuff, what do you have against LC?

I mean, I've got a couple mags of Hornandy 75gr TAP for home defense but I certainly don't use that for PR competitions or plinking.

HOLY COW!!! THAT IS AMAZING!

Just a bit more PROOF that the AR platform IS a GREAT system!

Why would you let it go so long without cleaning though? Just WOW!

Some arfcomer did that awhile back. I don't have enough money to buy 15000rds just for testing stuff lol. I just saved the pics.

 

[SSG]

What I am saying..is when you get an AR it's like buying a Yugo...yeah it will get you to the grocery store most of the time, but you better learn to work on it.

 

[gunnoob75]

SSG, STOP spreading disinformation. You are telling blatant lies in this forum, and should not be tolerated by the mods.

Your dumb gun-shop logic is completely wrong. AR's are NOT unreliable. Even after not cleaning. Multiple people in this thread have told you that, and you're the ONLY one who can say other wise -- Take a hint!

AR's work just fine in the sand box. Whatever documentary you were watching was about some dumb infantry kids that didn't know crap about their weapons, using horrible issued GI mags that don't feed well even new.

 

[spengo]

What I am saying..is when you get an AR it's like buying a Yugo...yeah it will get you to the grocery store most of the time, but you better learn to work on it.

What I am hearing is:

I am going to stick my head in the sand, completely ignore hard evidence, logical arguments, and what everyone else says, try to make it sound like people are saying something different than what they are actually saying, and continue stubbornly repeating what I said from the beginning.

 

[xjjeeper223]

Everyone can ignore SSG. He is talking through his @ss.

 

[SSG]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16-iraq.htm

<broken link removed>

Some of you guys must be gunstore owners...trying to push the AR15s before everyone get's wise....

 

[nwo]

While I admit that this "debate" with Mr. Bitter is great fun, I dont see HOW this is helping the ORIGINAL POSTER with his questions.

I wonder if we can get back on topic, and help him out?

 

[spengo]

Back on topic, OP: I say definitely go for that S&W. S&W makes very good quality AR-15s and they are the only people I am aware of at this time that make 5.45 uppers. If you are just starting with ARs, 5.45 is great because it's so cheap. I definitely recommend S&W.

I do not recommend buying a piston kit, they are silly and do not help your reliability at all unless you are running a suppressor. And even then, as I said before, I'd rather have a DI AR with a switchblock or something.

 

[Lange22250]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16-iraq.htm

<broken link removed>

Some of you guys must be gunstore owners...trying to push the AR15s before everyone get's wise....

So, after reading through the articles you quoted I don't see anything compelling.

The study pointed out that every weapon system "Pvt. Jessica's" squad used malfunctioned or failed, m4's, 243's and m2 .50's. Most of the senior NCO's who are INFANTRY, which is a small minority of the current armed forces, point out that by their standards most personnel don't appropriately for care there weapons. The squad in question were truck drivers who probably had minimal weapons training. I would have to say that is probable the cause in the case. Would an AK system have had the same problems? I've seen them have problems at matches on more than a few occasions, so it's possible. And remember the m4/m16 is NOT a machine gun, it's as assault rifle not intended for sustained FA use.

The second article is a joke. I don't know why they see that guy as an expert but as soon as he said that the add on sighting options caused more problem than they were worth, he lost all credibility.

My experience with the AR platform is more than satisfactory. I don't have a military back ground, but for every thing I do it's great. I regularly shoot out to 300 yrds with out any problems. Never had any mechanical malfunctions related to the rifle. The longest shots I've used it at were 480 and it was right on.

Go to major 3Gun matches and you'll be hard pressed to find anything other than AR's. We all spend tons of money on our equipment and can buy whatever we want. That alone is very telling.

 

[m469699]

For the original poster, +1 on the trigger job w/ Bill Springfield. I had one done and it is really good. I also paid to get the hammer bobbed and the JP spring installed.

here is the link to his site:

http://www.triggerwork.net/

 

[Redcap]

I think since Vietnam it's been pretty clear that you can't count on a dirty M16/AR15 to be reliable...vs AKs...

The problem with Aks is that they aren't nearly as accurate, and the firearm/ammo weighs much more...so you will probably pack less of it, and maybe run out quicker..

Read a study that came out of Korea that stated the average infantry man would wait to engage a hostile at just under 200 hundred yards, given open terrain where they could see them...gives you and idea on what you need for accuracy, what type of round ect: the M14 was developed out of that concept...

Personally I don't think there really is a decent assault rifle out here...HK has a version of the M16, that I think uses the gas piston system...saw it on Future weapons...they through it in a sand box ect...the design was such that it was self cleaning in a sense that with every shot, the carbon, direct ect was pushed out somehow, rather then building up...maybe it's ok...

If you remember the show 'Shoot Out' on the Discovery channel...when that Humvee convoy got lost, went to the wrong town...the one where Jessica L. was famously captured...it was like a 1 hour firefight....and the guy telling story basically said this...

'so there I was, then when SGT X M16 jammed up..he got hit...then when mine jammed up..I picked up another...then when CPL Y M16 stopped functioning...then he got shot...this went on for an hour...they had all the ammo in the world in the Humvees...but when the M16s ALL stopped working was when they got captured...Deja Vu from Vietnam?

Sorry the AR15 Platform is a POS...always has been...I suspect the continued use of this firearm is political and big contractors are involved...

How much trigger time do YOU have on an AR?

Let it be known that I'm not a real big fan of the platform and know it has flaws, but what you are spouting is just sheer ignorance and borderline idiocy.

 

[Buddhalux]

SSG, STOP spreading disinformation. You are telling blatant lies in this forum, and should not be tolerated by the mods.

Your dumb gun-shop logic is completely wrong. AR's are NOT unreliable. Even after not cleaning. Multiple people in this thread have told you that, and you're the ONLY one who can say other wise -- Take a hint!

AR's work just fine in the sand box. Whatever documentary you were watching was about some dumb infantry kids that didn't know crap about their weapons, using horrible issued GI mags that don't feed well even new.

Now I take personal offense to the Joe. I was an Army Ranger and Paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne Division as a Grunt for my first 5 yrs in the Army. Infantrymen KNOW how to maintain their weapons and have it instilled in us to keep our weapons clean because ours and our buddies lives depend on them to work. For a grunt, cleaning their weapons is like everyone else brushing their teeth. We can clean them without even paying attention since we literally spend days cleaning them. I can still disassemble and reassemble my AR without looking or even thinking about it after being out for 13 years. It's second nature since we always have our weapons on us. Now the REMF pogues on the other hand get BRM and minimal weapons/trigger time to learn and live with their weapons. Those are the ones that get their buddies killed since they freeze and panic when their boomstick quits going bang. They don't have the experience to clear the weapon and fix the issue while under fire.

 

[SSG]

How much trigger time do YOU have on an AR?

Let it be known that I'm not a real big fan of the platform and know it has flaws, but what you are spouting is just sheer ignorance and borderline idiocy.

My M16 experience started at MCRD San Diego...I have owned, fired, reloaded disasembled completely, fixed, adjusted, modified about every AR out there...At present I typicaly am the guy at our range that peeps come to me with their AR problems.

That's ok...I got a buddy, that against my advice, he went out and got a R. River 308...he can't get thru 4 rds without a jam...I told him to turn it in for another...what does he do? He buys another 'for backup'





There is no reasoning with some peeps. Just stubborn. In 'games', no biggy, but in the real world that will get you killed.

 

[spengo]

My M16 experience started at MCRD San Diego...I have owned, fired, reloaded disasembled completely, fixed, adjusted, modified about every AR out there...At present I typicaly am the guy at our range that peeps come to me with their AR problems.

&#3232;_&#3232;

That's ok...I got a buddy, that against my advice, he went out and got a R. River 308...he can't get thru 4 rds without a jam...I told him to turn it in for another...what does he do? He buys another 'for backup'

RRA is known to occasionally have QC issues. Most likely it was a problem with the gas key not being staked properly. Or maybe the gas rings. Could be a mag problem though, did he try a few different mags? If there was a problem with the BCG he should have returned it or at least had them fix the problem. A single anecdotal example of a lemon from a lower tier AR manufacturer does not condemn the rifle as a whole. That would be like saying all AKs suck because you bought a WASR-10 that has a canted front sight base or doesn't always feed right due to lack of dimples in the mag well or something. One time I was at brown's camp and there was some dudebro there with a yugo underfolder that jammed about once per mag and eventually ended up with a case stuck in the chamber. That doesn't mean all AKs suck.