National ATF Making AR/AK Pistols AOWs & SBRs and MORE!

[CamoDeafie]

I figure if I start to see confiscation happening it will be at the NFA level first. People who have suppressors and registered sbr.

Respectfully disagree with this notion. Understand that SCOTUS have ruled NFA to be "constitutional" and that the firearms covered by NFA are "not prohibited" or "are protected by 2A" depending on which lawyer in black robe you ask ; the confiscation would likely be for "unregistered" firearms determined by ATF to be covered under NFA, GCA, and Hughes Amendment

 

[Knebel]

How do they confiscate what they dont know is there?

 

[CamoDeafie]

How do they confiscate what they dont know is there?

4473s for the AR15 pistols, and determining specific models of pistols as AOWs or SBRs with braces Don't kid yourself, they know who has what in relation to law abiding gun owners. They could also slimy subpoena the purchase history from certain banks/credit cards and troll through them for sales of specific items (UPNs or barcodes)


What I am surprised however, is that we haven't heard or seen House/Senate bills proposing to add "assault weapons"/specific classes of firearms to NFA and require tax stamps for rifles/pistols with "certain features"...

 

[elitejake]

Nfa registration on a pistol might not be a bad idea. Nor would printing out the law to keep with your tax stamps. I've said for the last 7 years. I'll be legislated into being a felon before my son graduates high school. Yup I'm on track if all this becomes law and I don't bow to their will.
Ya.... guess which way I'll go.
I'm closer every day to joining the front skirmish lines when the bubblegum flies. And it will at some point. I just hope I can be there. and it doesn't have to fall to my son to step up.
The 2A is falling around us even if trump wins. It is a war of attrition and they have a head start. I love this country. I love my neighbours and Comunity. The thumb of oppression will blanket us all at some point if we can't stop them. We had a opportunity at the ballot box this year.

 

[arakboss]

Nfa registration on a pistol might not be a bad idea. Nor would printing out the law to keep with your tax stamps. I've said for the last 7 years. I'll be legislated into being a felon before my son graduates high school. Yup I'm on track if all this becomes law and I don't bow to their will.
Ya.... guess which way I'll go.
I'm closer every day to joining the front skirmish lines when the bubblegum flies. And it will at some point. I just hope I can be there. and it doesn't have to fall to my son to step up.
The 2A is falling around us even if trump wins. It is a war of attrition and they have a head start. I love this country. I love my neighbours and Comunity. The thumb of oppression will blanket us all at some point if we can't stop them. We had a opportunity at the ballot box this year.

I believe, it's going to happen State by State before the feds throw the big hammer down. Although the feds probably will regulate "heavy pistols" soon. I can see the feds making the move to regulate AR uppers as firearms too.

 

[turbo_vanner]

Nfa registration on a pistol might not be a bad idea. Nor would printing out the law to keep with your tax stamps. I've said for the last 7 years. I'll be legislated into being a felon before my son graduates high school. Yup I'm on track if all this becomes law and I don't bow to their will.
Ya.... guess which way I'll go.
I'm closer every day to joining the front skirmish lines when the bubblegum flies. And it will at some point. I just hope I can be there. and it doesn't have to fall to my son to step up.
The 2A is falling around us even if trump wins. It is a war of attrition and they have a head start. I love this country. I love my neighbours and Comunity. The thumb of oppression will blanket us all at some point if we can't stop them. We had a opportunity at the ballot box this year.

I have a feeling any kind of 'front line' will look alot like one of the Bundy stands.

 

[elitejake]

With the AR being the grown up version of Lego's. I figure that would be a hard sell to make a upper a firearm. But I won't put it past them.

 

[arakboss]

With the AR being the grown up version of Lego's. I figure that would be a hard sell to make a upper a firearm. But I won't put it past them.

They have already made the move on some "bolt action" versions of AR uppers. The lower should not be a firearm either under the definition of the law but they made that happen. An AR should only be a firearm when upper and lower are assembled, imho.

 

[CamoDeafie]

With the AR being the grown up version of Lego's. I figure that would be a hard sell to make a upper a firearm. But I won't put it past them.

Judge Finds Serious 'Disconnect' in ATF's Classification of AR-15 Lower Receivers as 'Firearms'
Well. Heres an article relating to the upper/lower design of the AR15

 

[arakboss]

Judge Finds Serious 'Disconnect' in ATF's Classification of AR-15 Lower Receivers as 'Firearms'
Well. Heres an article relating to the upper/lower design of the AR15

Yep the upper is closer to a firearm under the law but somehow the feds get to make things up as they go along. Look at the sig p320 set up. How on earth did they arrive at the FCU block being the firearm??? It's all goofy.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Imo all of this is simply related to "is the design for a one handed or two handed weapon?" ATF has never varied from saying a pistol is a one handed weapon and modifications (such as a vertical foregrip) that change it to a two handed weapon change its classification. previous atf flopping back and forth on pistol braces relates to "does the brace make it a two handed weapon?".

The core of the problem of course is trying to make modern weapons fit into pigeon holes created by the 1934 law, when such weapons did not exist.

that one company that was recently ruled against (can't remember name, honey badger maybe?) was obviuosly making their "pistol" version of their gun almost identical to the rifle version in terms of the stock/brace. Look at the two photos side by side for yourself, there is almost no difference.

Furthermore, that company asked the atf to approve it. If you make the one handed weapon virtually identical to the two handed weapon and keep asking the atf is it ok? then you will eventually get an answer you don't want to hear. You will cross the threshold where atf will say it is a two handed weapon. Now that the company has done that with the honey badger (or whatever the name is) they have probably invited tons of more scrutiny for all other similar weapons by other manufacturers.

I hope it is obvious that I'm not trying to defend atf because I think the idea of trying to shoehorn modern weapons into 1934 rules is creating this mess and is a waste of time and creates confusion for us gun owners. I just think we need to be logical about what is going on here, and not just react emotionally to internet guys trying to create hype.

In terms of finding cause, I would be looking at the company who created the honey badger and asked atf for approval. They needlessly caused atf to once again try to clumsily rule modern weapons as "in" or "out" of the 1934 pigeon holes. Why do that? It's stupid imo. We had guidance on shoulder braces that worked, so build the gun to those specs and not keep forcing atf's hand.

 

[BrentN]

With the AR being the grown up version of Lego's. I figure that would be a hard sell to make a upper a firearm. But I won't put it past them.

I figure this has to be in the conversation somewhere. They have to know that all that would be required to "turn in" would be the serialized portion, legally the "gun", aka a stripped ar-15 lower.
Though I don't believe for a second that anybody is going door to door to confiscate. They won't have too, just do it through legislation. Or even EO.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Imo all of this is simply related to "is the design for a one handed or two handed weapon?" ATF has never varied from saying a pistol is a one handed weapon and modifications (such as a vertical foregrip) that change it to a two handed weapon change its classification. previous atf flopping back and forth on pistol braces relates to "does the brace make it a two handed weapon?".

The core of the problem of course is trying to make modern weapons fit into pigeon holes created by the 1934 law, when such weapons did not exist.

that one company that was recently ruled against (can't remember name, honey badger maybe?) was obviuosly making their "pistol" version of their gun almost identical to the rifle version in terms of the stock/brace. Look at the two photos side by side for yourself, there is almost no difference.

Furthermore, that company asked the atf to approve it. If you make the one handed weapon virtually identical to the two handed weapon and keep asking the atf is it ok? then you will eventually get an answer you don't want to hear. You will cross the threshold where atf will say it is a two handed weapon. Now that the company has done that with the honey badger (or whatever the name is) they have probably invited tons of more scrutiny for all other similar weapons by other manufacturers.

I hope it is obvious that I'm not trying to defend atf because I think the idea of trying to shoehorn modern weapons into 1934 rules is creating this mess and is a waste of time and creates confusion for us gun owners. I just think we need to be logical about what is going on here, and not just react emotionally to internet guys trying to create hype.

In terms of finding cause, I would be looking at the company who created the honey badger and asked atf for approval. They needlessly caused atf to once again try to clumsily rule modern weapons as "in" or "out" of the 1934 pigeon holes. Why do that? It's stupid imo. We had guidance on shoulder braces that worked, so build the gun to those specs and not keep forcing atf's hand.

Q Armory for Honey Badger.

Here's the problem so far...

1. The ATF defines a rifle as a shoulder stocked weapon

2. The ATF defines a pistol as a one handed weapon

3. The ATF have used the determination of 26" OAL being the threshhold for a firearm to cross into "not concealable" from "concealable" (under 26") which is part of AOW definition; a concealable weapon (smaller than 26" OAL) that is not a rifle nor a pistol, and not a shotgun or Destructive Device. Or "a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun"

So, taking the above into consideration, if the ATF determines that the under 26" OAL AR15 "pistols" are AOWs; or they determine that all AR15 lowers are "Rifle receivers"; meaning either SBRs or AOWs... that would certainly make things complicated.

But there is that one group of ARs that would still measure greater than 26" OAL (like the 12" barreled, carbine extension tube and braced AR for example); it is only a "firearm"under GCA 1968, but might become a "SBR" if ATF defines "All existing AR15 receivers to be determined as rifle receivers"

 

[elitejake]

True on all posts against my statement. Confiscation is practically impossible. But legislation to make them illegal as well as cost inflation or what every they want to add to the pot. It makes it hard to exercise your rights. But they can say do it with a. Revolver. Then you are in compliance. It will only get there if we let it.
Don't know how to stop it today but we have to do better in two years.
As for a open rebellion.... that's a hard sell. Who would be there ? No on in their right mind would go toe to toe against the fed in a hot war. They bring way more to the fight then we could. They are not a headless snake that you cant stop. We have to vote individuals into power that can stop the swing of radical destruction of what founded this country. We have a openly socialist city council. Degradation of society and a call for more big brother. It will come crashing down and we will have to rebuild.
As for me and my family... I'll be out of the socialist dictatorship of Washington in three years. If it lasts that long.
Dam I can't fathom how any one with two brain cells to rub together. Could think that some one dictating what they can and can't do is freedom. You can't speak out against any one without being labeled a racist or bigot. Who forgot what debate class was. Or that there is value in understanding a difference of opinion or view point.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Q Armory for Honey Badger.

Here's the problem so far...

1. The ATF defines a rifle as a shoulder stocked weapon

2. The ATF defines a pistol as a one handed weapon

3. The ATF have used the determination of 26" OAL being the threshhold for a firearm to cross into "not concealable" from "concealable" (under 26") which is part of AOW definition; a concealable weapon (smaller than 26" OAL) that is not a rifle nor a pistol, and not a shotgun or Destructive Device. Or "a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun"

So, taking the above into consideration, if the ATF determines that the under 26" OAL AR15 "pistols" are AOWs; or they determine that all AR15 lowers are "Rifle receivers"; meaning either SBRs or AOWs... that would certainly make things complicated.

But there is that one group of ARs that would still measure greater than 26" OAL (like the 12" barreled, carbine extension tube and braced AR for example); it is only a "firearm"under GCA 1968, but might become a "SBR" if ATF defines "All existing AR15 receivers to be determined as rifle receivers"

I think someone needs to make a Venn diagram for what is AOW, pistol, sbr, etc then put in all details of length, etc etc then put all the weapons out there today in their right place.

It would look like one of those Spirograph toy designs or something. Lines going everywhere and a complete mess. But most anyone could draw that Venn diagram for 1934 when the laws were created though, A few simple circles, a few categories of firearms.

I can't offer a solution though except perhaps call anything that doesn't precisely fit "non-regulated". Then atf wouldn't have to worry about those and stop trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. It would cut out some red tape and confusion.

 

[Boboclown]

I do believe that too yes. But if even an unbraced Pistol isnt a pistol anymore then idk. The honey badgers advertising looked more like it had the intend to circumvent.

The honey badger's brace was longer than an actual stock, it was also almost too small even for small forearms.

 

[Member 53328]

The ATF likes to just run in circles..... so if you have a 26 overall length and have pistol brace on it what is it? I know that may change here shortly. But is it a pistol, aow, etc? Nothing like becoming a felon with vague and muddy water laws.....

 

[CamoDeafie]

The ATF likes to just run in circles..... so if you have a 26 overall length and have pistol brace on it what is it? I know that may change here shortly. But is it a pistol, aow, etc? Nothing like becoming a felon with vague and muddy water laws.....

Following the published opinions of the ATF, it would be a tough call due to the "over or under" OAL determination.. but I would say if exactly 26", its not an AOW? Might still be called a "pistol" in same vein as the M1C Advisor, or similar; but that would depend again, on the ATF

 

[Member 53328]

Following the published opinions of the ATF, it would be a tough call due to the "over or under" OAL determination.. but I would say if exactly 26", its not an AOW? Might still be called a "pistol" in same vein as the M1C Advisor, or similar; but that would depend again, on the ATF

So much for having an objective view.

 

[CamoDeafie]

So much for having an objective view.

All the more reason to abolish the ATF and repeal the various Gun Control laws