ATF is Classifying .50 cal bolt action AR Upper as Firearms....

American123 · Jul 30, 2018

Argonaut said:
It does sound like double talk........but as a lawful firearm owner and user.......I am not concerned.

You can be 'lawfully' removed of your 'illegal' firearms if the government can legislate those once legally owned firearms into 'illegal to possess' category.

Being a law abiding gun owner should worry you more than anything because you will, as a "lawful gun owner" obey the ridiculous laws, while criminals don't care.

nehalemguy · Jul 30, 2018

Black Rain said:
On my SCAR16 the aluminum upper is considered the firearm, the plastic lower containing the trigger group is not serialized.

Same here with all of my HK roller lock stuff. Upper receiver is the "gun", not the lower receiver with the trigger pack.

E

FireArm · Jul 30, 2018

Thats major BS coming from a federal office who often flip flops on their decisions. so now all bolt actions need two background checks?

Ranoca · Jul 30, 2018

So for those keeping track:

Ruger MK series? The upper is a firearm.
AR? The lower is a firearm.
Sig 250 and 320? The trigger group is a firearm.
1919? A side plate is a firearm.

Now that that's been made clear, let's continue! For those playing at home, look and see which part has the number. If on multiple parts, each part should be considered a firearm. Sucks for mil-surp!

Flopsweat · Jul 30, 2018

bolus said:
Look, I found another un-serialized firearm
View attachment 483453

Because if you attach a firearm to this, it becomes a firearm. Just like a 50 BMG upper.

Don't forget that a 14" long shoestring that for 3 years was a machine gun!
Shoestring Machine Gun
Now it's only a machine gun if you attach it to a gun.

Argonaut · Jul 30, 2018

American123 said:
You can be 'lawfully' removed of your 'illegal' firearms if the government can legislate those once legally owned firearms into 'illegal to possess' category.

Being a law abiding gun owner should worry you more than anything because you will, as a "lawful gun owner" obey the ridiculous laws, while criminals don't care.

That is the ability any government has in a law abiding society............and why it is so important to be vigilant over who we choose to represent us. They can also legalize guns, activities or anything formerly illegal.....which is much more common today. Like asking when did you stop beating your wife?........ so what do we do with people that received speeding tickets for driving 75 in a 65 after we raised the speed limit to 80 on the exact highway here in Idaho? Does it mean that they were any less in violation?

bolus · Jul 30, 2018

Flopsweat said:
Don't forget that a 14" long shoestring that for 3 years was a machine gun!
Shoestring Machine Gun
Now it's only a machine gun if you attach it to a gun.

If I was Trump I'd be tweeting about how the ATF is less useful than a hemorrhoid.

American123 · Jul 30, 2018

Argonaut said:
That is the ability any government has in a law abiding society............and why it is so important to be vigilant over who we choose to represent us. They can also legalize guns, activities or anything formerly illegal.....which is much more common today. Like asking when did you stop beating your wife?

I'll hold my breath 1 second for every gun law that has been passed as been repeal and you hold your breath 1 second for every gun law that has passed and remains in the books and the concept of firearm rights being resorted in this country being a reality has a long way to go.

There is a fistful of States in this country that have outright denied Americans the 2nd amendment as it was intended and gotten away with it.

Argonaut · Jul 30, 2018

American123 said:
I'll hold my breath 1 second for every gun law that has been passed as been repeal and you hold your breath 1 second for every gun law that has passed and remains in the books and the concept of firearm rights being resorted in this country being a reality has a long way to go.

There is a fistful of States in this country that have outright denied Americans the 2nd amendment as it was intended and gotten away with it.

We have been affirmed and given many more gun rights in the last decades than have been taken away. Many issues have been affirmed as legal and rights in the latest history than we have lost. Do you have any idea how huge the Supreme Court affirmation that the second amendment pertains to the individual was? For a couple of hundred years it was an open question about the definition of the second amendment. We have been given the ability to legally manufacture and own short barrel rifles and shotguns previously deemed illegal, we can legally manufacture guns for ourselves, my 14" barrel TAC-14 has been ruled legal under the ATF other rule without NFA oversight, even bump stocks were ruled legal until some idiot used them to shoot up a crowd. You claim to be an educated man......one of the things I would have hoped that you have learned is to evaluate issues in an even handed manner. Off course, I am aware that higher education is more often a cesspool of liberal politically correct subjects with little practical training.

American123 · Jul 30, 2018

Argonaut said:
We have been affirmed and given many more gun rights in the last decades than have been taken away. Many issues have been affirmed as legal and rights in the last decades than we have lost. Do you have any idea how huge the Supreme Court affirmation that the second amendment pertains to the individual was? For a couple of hundred years it was an open question about the definition of the second amendment. We have been given the ability to legally manufacture and own short barrel rifles and shotguns previously deemed illegal, we can legally manufacture guns for ourselves, my 14" barrel TAC-14 has been ruled legal under the ATF other rule without NFA oversight, even bump stocks were ruled legal until some idiot used them to shoot up a crowd.

I'm happy about those things, I'm merely expressing my discontent at additional regulations that have been introduced. We still have a very staunch leftist agenda to dismantle the 2nd Amendment and being content with any additional regulation provides further means for those parties to continue torward that goal.

Vaultman · Jul 30, 2018

a clip from the OP's link...

A key phrase is:
... for hammer, bolt, or breachblock and firing mechanism...

the next part has a "usually" so I would go back to the question of "Does it have hammer, bolt or breachblock... if yes, then does it have a firing mechanism... if yes, then this housing is the "Firearm frame or receiver" they are defining.

Boboclown · Jul 30, 2018

Firing mechanism=Trigger. They are also very inconsistent.

The part with the grip and stock has the trigger and hammer. It is not the receiver, its just the trigger housing.

ATF, yet again, manages to not be the brightest.

Unless they mean the part the barrel is threaded to, in which case some politician messed up big time in definition.

Flymph · Jul 30, 2018

I'm confused...

However I think that was intentional.

11Charlie · Jul 31, 2018

Didn't read the whole thread but to me this is a slippery slope. Next thing they will do is make side charge AR's a firearm because the stupid can't decipher the damn difference!

Basedgreaser · Jul 31, 2018

a bolt action upper receiver being classified as a receiver makes more sense then a pistol brace making a rifle a pistol.
Ar15's have two receivers, only one is serialized. If they do serialize upper recievers this could open up a great market opportunity for a new design of caliber conversion guns.
Ide love a gun that goes from 308 winchester to 7.62x39 to 300blck fluidly, you know like the acr was suposed to be once upon a time.

bolus · Jul 31, 2018

Basedgreaser said:
a bolt action upper receiver being classified as a receiver makes more sense then a pistol brace making a rifle a pistol.
Ar15's have two receivers, only one is serialized. If they do serialize upper recievers this could open up a great market opportunity for a new design of caliber conversion guns.
Ide love a gun that goes from 308 winchester to 7.62x39 to 300blck fluidly, you know like the acr was suposed to be once upon a time.

How does a serialized upper open up caliber conversions? If you go from 308 to 300 blackout you need a new receiver with a different sized mag well. No one will make a lower receiver that fits both 308 mags and 556 mags. Even if someone did, it would need a serial number and would be called a firearm. Then you are right back to needing 2 serial numbers for one firearm that cant function without the other.

2 serial numbers for one gun makes no sense. Just because the parts are interchangeable does not mean you can run one without a serialized part.

All it does is add complexity to a poorly functioning system. How many uppers are sold a year? Add that many new background checks and FFL transfer fees. Then the ATF would start making rules about a pistol upper and rifle upper and what receivers they can match with. Then it would make stupid rule about which upper could match with a pistol brace vs a buttstock. And then it would start restricting calibers to certain uppers and lowers. Then they would limit full auto BCG in an upper just because...

These guys do not need a reason to justify their jobs.

Basedgreaser · Jul 31, 2018

If they serialized both receivers on ar15's then single reciever designs could see a spike in popularity, you wouldnt need a different reciever per a caliber just one that can withstand 308 with an adjustable magwell or different magwells, interchangeable barrels ect. Im sure there are creative people out there who could come up with a workaround for downsizing to smaller calibers from a 308 platform.

The rest of your first paragraph is incoherent

Your next paragraph is irrelevant to what i was saying. I dont know where your getting the idea that i think a firearm wont have a serial number.

Im not sure what "poorly functioning system" you are refering to in your third paragraph, last i checked the acr is a good design which is the only "system" i mentioned by name in my post.