ATF is Classifying .50 cal bolt action AR Upper as Firearms....

[powermad]

That's because it's European and their laws are different than ours... almost 180° out of phase with what US law determines to be a "gun".

What classifies it as a firearm is that FN guns have the magwell on the upper and there is no lower reciever, it's a trigger group housing and reciever. FN guns have the action and magwell all in one reciever.

AR's have the magwell on the lower, the trigger group just so happens to be in the same chunk of metal.
Look through your safe, whatever holds the mag is serielized.
Old Sigs like the West German ones have the barrel, frame and slide serilelized to satisfy all customers, due to different parts of the gun were classed as the firearm in different countries.

But for the USA, the upper on a bolt action AR makes no sence to class it as the firearm.
The lower is the "gun" as it still holds the mag. The upper just holds the action.

 

[American123]

I was just thinking this same thing..... MKII and MKIII pistols. Are the new MKIV?

Mere serialization on uppers is not the main stink here. Any business can slap a serial number on a component for inventory control and warranty purposes, no big deal, it's their product. My Glocks have matching serial numbers on the barrel, the slide, and the receiver frame (the part that is actually considered a firearm and regulated)

The problem is that the ATF is trying to classify what amounts to a completed AR upper receiver as a firearm, that would place it under the laws pertaining to firearms meaning that it could not be purchased except through FFL transfer and local taxes / fees imposed. Additionally it is problematic because it leaves the door wide open legislatively to determine all AR uppers are Firearms, magically making each completed AR now 'two firearms,'

Imagine you wanting to by a new upper receiver for your MKIII and use the same lower reciever (trigger and all that) but the government is telling you that that new upper receiver is actually a firearm and you must go to an FFL for that. Sounds rather silly.

Edit: Apparent that is exactly how it works for the MKIII and it still doesn't make any sense lol

 

[Member 45464]

I was just thinking this same thing..... MKII and MKIII pistols. Are the new MKIV?

Same.

 

[Argonaut]

But the trigger component is still in the lower. Isn't that the whole point of where the trigger housing is?

The same as a FN FAL that the upper is considered the registered part. The lower is unregulated.

 

[Argonaut]

Mere serialization on uppers is not the main stink here. Any business can slap a serial number on a component for inventory control and warranty purposes, no big deal, it's their product. My Glocks have matching serial numbers on the barrel, the slide, and the receiver frame (the part that is actually considered a firearm and regulated)

The problem is that the ATF is trying to classify what amounts to a completed AR upper receiver as a firearm, that would place it under the laws pertaining to firearms meaning that it could not be purchased except through FFL transfer and local taxes / fees imposed. Additionally it is problematic because leaves the door wide open legislatively to determine all AR uppers are Firearms, magically making each completed AR now 'two firearms,'

Imagine you wanting to by a new upper receiver for your MKIII and use the same lower reciever (trigger and all that) but the government is telling you that that new upper receiver is actually a firearm and you must go to an FFL for that. Sounds rather silly.

Isn't that exactly how a Ruger 22 semi auto hand gun works? The upper is the serial numbered regulated part. The issue that has always been curious to me is the black powder conversion cylinders. A black powder revolver is not regulated but you can buy a conversion cylinder (just like the old days) and make it shoot modern smokeless cartridges also without any regulation.

 

[etrain16]

But the trigger component is still in the lower. Isn't that the whole point of where the trigger housing is?

Not necessarily. On TNW Firearms' Aero Survival rifles/pistols, the upper is the firearm, not the lower.

 

[etrain16]

What classifies it as a firearm is that FN guns have the magwell on the upper and there is no lower reciever, it's a trigger group housing and reciever. FN guns have the action and magwell all in one reciever.

AR's have the magwell on the lower, the trigger group just so happens to be in the same chunk of metal.
Look through your safe, whatever holds the mag is serielized.
Old Sigs like the West German ones have the barrel, frame and slide serilelized to satisfy all customers, due to different parts of the gun were classed as the firearm in different countries.

But for the USA, the upper on a bolt action AR makes no sence to class it as the firearm.
The lower is the "gun" as it still holds the mag. The upper just holds the action.

As I noted above, the TNW Aero's lower is very similar to an AR - has the trigger and the magwell, yet it's the upper that is the serialized/firearm part of the gun. Lowers can be bought w/o a BGC.

 

[Member 34319]

10/22s are another good example of the assbackwards logic of firearms law.

You can by whole lower trigger assemblies of the web.

The shell of a receiver is the serialized part.

It's a really weird system.

I would not be surprised if they are secretly reigning in on the whole assemble your own gun thing that's swept the nation.

They want guns serialized, all of it, not an individual component of a gun.

 

[Argonaut]

As I remember, the ATF makes a ruling on what the seralized part is on a each different weapon.......they just study it and make a decision.

 

[American123]

Not necessarily. On TNW Firearms' Aero Survival rifles/pistols, the upper is the firearm, not the lower.

I was not aware that the top half of my Ruger MK II was considered the firearm and the trigger/lowerframe reciever was not. The system makes no sense.

 

[etrain16]

I was not aware that the top half of my Ruger MK II was considered the firearm and the trigger/lowerframe reciever was not. The system makes no sense.

It doesn't make any sense, until you realize it's the government making the decisions

 

[American123]

As I noted above, the TNW Aero's lower is very similar to an AR - has the trigger and the magwell, yet it's the upper that is the serialized/firearm part of the gun. Lowers can be bought w/o a BGC.

I've learned some things in this thread I didn't know before (which specific guns don't follow the same benefits enjoyed by the AR regarding what is classified as the firearm.)

The inconsistency on the matter from firearm design to firearm design reminds me why my opinion of the NFA and the ATF is what it is.

 

[bolus]

2 serial number, 2 separate firearms in one rifle
Complete Rifles



Just think, you disassemble it and have 2 separate firearms, each capable of clubbing something with, completely unable to fire any sort of cartridge.

Only the best and brightest at the ATF

 

[American123]

2 serial number, 2 separate firearms in one rifle
Complete Rifles

View attachment 483450

Just think, you disassemble it and have 2 separate firearms, each capable of clubbing something with, completely unable to fire any sort of cartridge.

Only the best and brightest at the ATF

This is exactly what I was talking about, completely asinine!

 

[bolus]

This is exactly what I was talking about, completely asinine!

Look, I found another un-serialized firearm


Because if you attach a firearm to this, it becomes a firearm. Just like a 50 BMG upper.

 

[American123]

Look, I found another un-serialized firearm
View attachment 483453

Because if you attach a firearm to this, it becomes a firearm. Just like a 50 BMG upper.

Oooooooo, but does it stay a firearm after you have removed the firearm you attached to it to make it a firearm? We may have stumbled upon the 'Midas touch' of firearms, anything it touches becomes a firearm!

 

[Boboclown]

But the trigger component is still in the lower. Isn't that the whole point of where the trigger housing is?

Location of trigger is irrelevant. The FAL and PTR91 have the triggers in the lower, for them its just a trigger housing and not a receiver. Its just whatever the ATF wants to say the receiver is.

 

[Camelfilter]

From the article:

"...
Non-Standard AR Uppers = Firearms


..."


Both confusing and very concerning!

 

[Argonaut]

From the article:

"...
Non-Standard AR Uppers = Firearms
View attachment 483475

..."


Both confusing and very concerning!

It does sound like double talk........but as a lawful firearm owner and user.......I am not concerned.

 

[Camelfilter]

It does sound like double talk........but as a lawful firearm owner and user.......I am not concerned.

Just concerned that they can just whip up non-standard upper out of thin air.

.22lr? Non standard.
Grendel? Non standard.
.300 AAC.? Non standard.
7.62x39? Non standard.
Pistol? Non standard.

And so forth, should they so chose. On a whim.

Now, if it were a public safety issue, with documented statistics, maybe.

Then include all uppers.

Those evil "ghost gun" folks comitting all of those heinous crimes?

Well they still would have access to "standard" AR uppers legally, wouldn't they? Course, they would never put the two together, because that would be against the law for a prohibited person to do...

Nope. Just some standard mindless bureaucratic mumbo jumbo going on...