Arizona Rancher Murder Trial Mistrial

[WestcoastWes]

I betcha all in all it was not worth all the time the guy spent in court, with lawyers, detained, etc. Not to mention it probably cost him an armload of money. I have a hard time giving a big old stinker.

 

[arakboss]

I am certainly not defending this guys actions and based on what I saw he is most likely guilty of some legal level of killing.

Unfortunately a lot of older people have distorted views with regard to self defense and gun laws. I encounter many like this regularly and some believe they have the right to defend themselves, by any means regardless of the threat no matter how minimal, or if any. Some talk as though they are impervious to the law and it would not affect them.

Some of these people describe a 'higher power' they believe in will guide them, tell them 'what to do' and will ultimately protect them in the aftermath of whatever happens.

And for all that guy knew she was an accomplice of the scammers. At 85 he may have some level of dementia and or degraded senses. He was being victimized and whether the driver was involved or not wouldn't necessarily been known to the old fellow at time. She had something in her hands and he could have perceived it as a weapon. Lots of cops with younger minds and senses have done so. As somebody who supports very liberal stand your ground laws, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[JRMadrid]

And for all that guy knew she was an accomplice of the scammers. At 85 he may have some level of dementia and or degraded senses. He was being victimized and whether the driver was involved or not wouldn't necessarily been known to the old fellow at time. She had something in her hands and he could have perceived it as a weapon. Lots of cops with younger minds and senses have done so. As somebody who supports very liberal stand your ground laws, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Wrong court case.

 

[Barefootdog]

Wrong court case but the world and personal risk analysis does look different to older citizens.

At 75 the guy knows he can't move like he used to. He's not as strong and doesn't have the reflexes or endurance he used to. His eyes and hearing aren't what the used to be. He's alone in his farmhouse in a rural (remote?) location. Looks out his window and sees 8 young men walking across his property (towards his house?). Fact is no one is coming to help him if things go bad.

With local realities what they are I can see why a jury of his peers might be reluctant to put this guy in jail.

Just playing devils advocate with what few facts we have....

 

[JRMadrid]

......personal risk analysis does look different to older citizens.

Right..
25 to life doesn't mean much when you're 85.

 

[Alexx1401]

I am certainly not defending this guys actions and based on what I saw he is most likely guilty of some legal level of killing.

Unfortunately a lot of older people have distorted views with regard to self defense and gun laws. I encounter many like this regularly and some believe they have the right to defend themselves, by any means regardless of the threat no matter how minimal, or if any. Some talk as though they are impervious to the law and it would not affect them.

Some of these people describe a 'higher power' they believe in will guide them, tell them 'what to do' and will ultimately protect them in the aftermath of whatever happens.

When someone gets to the point they can no longer drive is it "sad"? Yes. Does it need to be done? YES. This was an example of someone who should NOT have had a gun. Is it sad? Yes. He will spend the rest of his days in prison, sad. This will be used by those who want more gun laws for me, also sad. Bottom line is he either should NOT have had a gun, and maybe not have been allowed to live unsupervised. Since he was some person is now dead over this.
The last time I was at the DMV getting another endorsement to ride again an elderly lady was in front of me with her daughter. The woman could not hear, her Daughter had to literally scream in her ear each question. Eye test time the woman could NOT pass. So DMV personnel gave her a license that only allowed her to drive during daylight hours. All I could think was so when she runs over someone during daylight hours I guess it will be OK because after all she was old. It is amazing the people making excuses for this. I have to wonder if someone like this kills a loved one of theirs will they still be making excuses?

 

[arakboss]

Wrong court case.

Don't think so but thanks for checking.

 

[JuglansRegia]

Also; when you are past a certain age like 80, a "life sentence" isn't much of a thing.

 

[Provincial]

I think more to the point of the original post, this is a case of the legal system attempting to make an example of someone they think of as a "vigilante." In doing so, they overreached and the evidence was not strong enough to prove (beyond a shadow of a doubt) to the jury that the rancher was the one who shot the trespasser.

If they had found the bullet and matched it to his gun, it would have been a good case, but they didn't. In a gang-related shooting, the case would not have been brought, because there wasn't enough evidence to be worth the time and expense of prosecution. In the case of a vigilante, just the publicity of putting the old fellow through the wringer perhaps discourages persons from taking action themselves. That was the motivation for pursuing the case - discouraging vigilantism.

Our whole justice system relies on the general population having faith that the system will do the right thing and be both fair and objective. Once the public loses faith, the system is crippled. There are two ways to deal with such a failure. First, make it clear that the system will be fair, objective, and treat everyone the same. Second, just use the system to destroy anyone that goes vigilante, pulling out all the stops.

If you don't do the first, the second has a bad look.

 

[JuglansRegia]

^^ this, out of the hundreds of deaths around the border, this is the one they decided to investigate and prosecute.

 

[Nosferatu]

This sends a strong message to Ranchers in the area: Keep a deep hole and your backhoe/tractor/skidsteer ready at all times.

 

[arakboss]

You know what would fix this? More Vigilante Movies.

 

[JRMadrid]

....

 

[arakboss]

ok. Must have missed the connection about the scammer and something in their hand...


So.. You link this article? Sure as bubblegumt this is the one about the scammers... not the rancher.

@RVTECH responded to a comment made by @Alexx1401 regarding scammer pick up driver getting shot by 85 year old scamming victim. I responded to @RVTECH regarding the same event.

It's sort of like having a picture in a picture on your TV. We are walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time.

 

[Alexx1401]

I think more to the point of the original post, this is a case of the legal system attempting to make an example of someone they think of as a "vigilante." In doing so, they overreached and the evidence was not strong enough to prove (beyond a shadow of a doubt) to the jury that the rancher was the one who shot the trespasser.

If they had found the bullet and matched it to his gun, it would have been a good case, but they didn't. In a gang-related shooting, the case would not have been brought, because there wasn't enough evidence to be worth the time and expense of prosecution. In the case of a vigilante, just the publicity of putting the old fellow through the wringer perhaps discourages persons from taking action themselves. That was the motivation for pursuing the case - discouraging vigilantism.

Our whole justice system relies on the general population having faith that the system will do the right thing and be both fair and objective. Once the public loses faith, the system is crippled. There are two ways to deal with such a failure. First, make it clear that the system will be fair, objective, and treat everyone the same. Second, just use the system to destroy anyone that goes vigilante, pulling out all the stops.

If you don't do the first, the second has a bad look.

THIS! The "justice system" has ALWAYS had some "issues" but, it used to be for the most part people would watch it "work". Sadly those with "money and power" have always had a "better" shake here. Looking around the world though never seem to see anyplace doing it "better". This all really changed to a shocking degree when those in power suddenly found themselves no longer able to always gaslight the vast majority of the population. As many began to really get scared by this they did a few things. Those in power have began to use the justice system as a weapon and it keeps getting worse. The only reason it "works" is those who are supposed to be "protected" by it allow this to happen. We are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here with people who no longer have faith in the "system" when it comes to protecting them from crime. So of course some are going to just take "justice" in their own hands. This gets dangerous REAL damn fast as faith in the system starts to fall apart. I have LONG tried to tell the "we hate Cops" crowd who "think" they don't need them they have NO clue what they are blowing hot air about. Our VERY comfortable society only works with justice working as it was designed. Humans have the capacity to turn into shocking animals if this breaks down. Anyone who has ever seen it is never the same again after.

 

[Alexx1401]

You know what would fix this? More Vigilante Movies.


View attachment 1868468

That movie was great writing and acting. Always did love Charles. The best part of that movie was when he had been doing his "thing" for a while and those in power were flummoxed that while they could not catch him crime stats were going the right direction in a HUGE way. We see this play out today all the time. Towns where crime is not promoted have less crime. The scum tend to not be the brightest bulbs but they still gravitate to the places they can get away with it. Of course the real world problem with this fantasy is if it really starts to happen it does not take long to start to get real out of hand, real bad.

 

[Provincial]

It looks like 7 of the 8 jurors wanted to acquit, but one wanted to convict on at least one charge. This would indicate that a retrial would would also be unlikely to convict.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/arizona-...uror-blocked-acquittal-state-weighs-2nd-trial

 

[Yarome]

There seemed to be 2 narratives.

1. Kelly saw a groups of men (not just two) from his window. Some appeared to be armed and he hear a single shot... which is what compelled him to exit his home with his rifle. He then saw the two men and fired several warning shot into the air.

2. There were only two men. One who testified that he and his friend were near the wall headed back home over the border and watched his friend shot after a volley of gunshots. He also witnessed a nearby horse that was also shot by Kelly's gunfire.

There are some obvious issues with the illegal Hondurans testimony. There was no horse and the wall is a mile away from the border of Kelly's property. If they were indeed near the wall then there is no way the shooting could have taken place ON Kelly's property.

In the first, it would be easy to understand a potential cartel involvement. It's not at all unheard of them attempting to extort those they are trafficking over the border for additional money... or for whatever reason... and not that uncommon for them to execute their fellows as an example.

In the second, a man commonly dealing with illegals crossing his property, finding bodies, drugs or the whatnot can take a toll on a mans psyche. "Firing into the air" doesn't exactly say how much over their heads nor does it mean unanticipated bullet drop might have found a target.

One does seem more likely than the other though and without the bullet, I doubt anyone will know for sure. With all the tech we have at our disposal these days... convenient that the bullet couldn't be found, hu? If there "isn't" one to feed the narrative they want, "we couldn't recover them all" is better than actually recovering them all and providing evidence he didn't hit anyone, right. It leaves open the room for doubt.

Like others have said, the whole case could easily be seen to smack a bit of an agenda piece. A white man shooting a minority brown skinned illegal. Certainly a good case to try and make an example that the leftist gooberment would likely want to take advantage of to push their agenda.

On the other hand, cold blooded murder is completely unacceptable and can't see it not being investigated.

Although not always, guilty men typically aren't the ones making the call to police... and men without a sure knowledge of their innocence typically don't refuse a favorable plea bargain. Hardly proof of anything one way or the other, but it could certainly cause a person to error on the side of doubt toward his guilt.

One absolutely cold hard fact exists. If the guy wasn't in the country illegally and traipsing over a man's private property... he most certainly would still be alive. It doesn't justify murder, if that's what really happened, but it's undeniable that it never would have happened if he hadn't been there in the first place.

 

[Yarome]

It looks like 7 of the 8 jurors wanted to acquit, but one wanted to convict on at least one charge. This would indicate that a retrial would would also be unlikely to convict.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/arizona-...uror-blocked-acquittal-state-weighs-2nd-trial

Wow. That really is a raw deal. I would agree. If one jury was nearly unanimously willing to acquit, it would be a massive uphill battle trying to get another jury to completely flip the opposite direction.

One person unwilling to acknowledge the evidence and refuse to move away from their "feelings"? Where have we seen that before??

 

[Dartor]

Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly defense says 'lone holdout' juror blocked acquittal, state weighs 2nd trial

Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly's defense confirmed that seven jurors wanted a "not guilty" verdict, while "one, lone holdout" wanted to convict, resulting in a mistrial.

www.foxnews.com

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