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AR Frustration.
- Thread Starter nwo
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I've had similar issues at the range more than once. It usually ended up that the combination of Wolf or other "dirty" ammo and too little oil caused them to seize up.
Because of this I have pretty much abandoned the AR platform and gone back to AKs.
Because of this I have pretty much abandoned the AR platform and gone back to AKs.
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I had a HSM factory reload do this to me the other day after a FTF. All catridges in the mag were shiny except for this one piece. Very tarnished/black...looked like improperly sized also according to the rub marks on it. Primer failed to go off after two strikes and even the powder looked funny when I dumped it. Took a good bit of slamming the buttstock down while pulling the charging handle to free it.
For bolt lube:
Step one remove bolt
Step two drop in bucket of favorite oil...Castrol 5w20 works or valvoline 10w30 or mobil synthetic 10w40...you get the picture.
Step three let soak for a bit then fling off excess oil and wipe down just a bit
Step four insert into EBR and enjoy
I'm sure the purists wouldn't approve but it's worked good so far
For bolt lube:
Step one remove bolt
Step two drop in bucket of favorite oil...Castrol 5w20 works or valvoline 10w30 or mobil synthetic 10w40...you get the picture.
Step three let soak for a bit then fling off excess oil and wipe down just a bit
Step four insert into EBR and enjoy
I'm sure the purists wouldn't approve but it's worked good so far
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I have had this same issue as well as a buddy of mine. He told me that he solved it, like billt said, by switching to a small based re-sizing die. I cant say for sure about the rounds I fired because they were loaded for me by a friend of a friend. My co-worker that reloaded his own was absolutely positive that the cure was to use the small based re-sizing die. Since he changed his he has never had the problem again.
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A small base resizing die should do it.... Brass dosent like the punishment 3 loads tops but this should solve the issue also measure case at base side to side Had a few cases that were still to fat after sizing.
generally a failure to lockup is exactly that- buffer spring. generally. but not with 5 different guns with 5 different lowers containing 5 different buffer springs.
also.. stretching springs might improve function for a minute, but then it'll be even worse than it was before. buffer springs usually cost about a dollar.... just replace it.
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Are these 5.56 chambers or .223?
If the surplus was fired in a machinegun it will probably need to be run through a small base resizing die, they tend to be hard on things (found out the hard way).
If the surplus was fired in a machinegun it will probably need to be run through a small base resizing die, they tend to be hard on things (found out the hard way).
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It wouldn't matter. Both are exactly the same. The difference is in freeboring, which wouldn't effect chambering of a loaded round. If the round fits in one, it will fit in the other. Bill T.
5.56 MM Chamber
.223 Remington Chamber
I have a 6.5 Grendel, reloading is New to me, and was having the same frustrations with rounds not loading completely, some yes some no without adding anymore to pick at, and not being an expert.... here is what i found ... reading somewhere back i remembered ...
prep case and seat bullet WITHOUT primer or powder, ... take a candle and soot cover the case and bullet with black soot, single load without loading into a magazine, handle carefully, release the bolt like normal then extract it .. the soot will show you every single mark, i found that some 130 gr, not all, were seated to far out, regardless of what my fancy seater die said, so I seated slightly deeper and bingo it worked then took 3 123 gr. vld's no primer, no powder and set micrometer, measured, measured smoked with soot, loaded in mag and cycled all 3 all 3 showed the magazine marks, feed ramp mark, and just the slightest bit of chamber rifling marks at the ogive add powder, primer and schzam another winner point was for me the published COL was not even close... one bullet type is different than the other .... my only intent here is to say the soot thing worked for me ... I am NO EXPERT, not even close.. but I did ask experts, their advise was sage, but the soot told me, the story also .. i was overly careful about not compressing the powder charge
prep case and seat bullet WITHOUT primer or powder, ... take a candle and soot cover the case and bullet with black soot, single load without loading into a magazine, handle carefully, release the bolt like normal then extract it .. the soot will show you every single mark, i found that some 130 gr, not all, were seated to far out, regardless of what my fancy seater die said, so I seated slightly deeper and bingo it worked then took 3 123 gr. vld's no primer, no powder and set micrometer, measured, measured smoked with soot, loaded in mag and cycled all 3 all 3 showed the magazine marks, feed ramp mark, and just the slightest bit of chamber rifling marks at the ogive add powder, primer and schzam another winner point was for me the published COL was not even close... one bullet type is different than the other .... my only intent here is to say the soot thing worked for me ... I am NO EXPERT, not even close.. but I did ask experts, their advise was sage, but the soot told me, the story also .. i was overly careful about not compressing the powder charge
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I am not claiming any expert knowledge just pointing out that Billt, you have pictures of the cartridge dimensions and not the chamber dimensions. There is a difference in the actual chambers of 5.56 and .223
Please don't take offense.
I found this on Wikipedia.
5.56mm NATO versus .223 Remington
The 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are similar but not identical. Military cases are generally made from thicker brass than commercial cases; this reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders[15]), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56 mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 MPa (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 MPa (62,366 psi) for 5.56 mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 MPa (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[16] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56 mm NATO.
The 5.56 mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Rock River Arms)[17] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56 mm NATO chamber specification.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56 mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[18] Using 5.56 mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and SAAMI recommends against the practice.[19][20] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14 (marked ".223 cal"), but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm NATO ammunition.[21]
It should also be noted that the upper receiver (to which the barrel with its chamber are attached) and the lower receiver are entirely separate parts in AR-15 style rifles. If the lower receiver has either .223 or 5.56 stamped on it, it does not guarantee the upper assembly is rated for the same caliber, because the upper and the lower receiver in same rifle can, and frequently do, come from different manufacturers – particularly with rifles sold to civilians or second-hand rifles.
In more practical terms, as of 2010 most AR-15 parts suppliers engineer their complete upper assemblies (not to be confused with stripped uppers where the barrel is not included) to support both calibers in order to protect their customers from injuries and to protect their businesses from litigation following the said injuries.
Mike
Please don't take offense.
I found this on Wikipedia.
5.56mm NATO versus .223 Remington
The 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are similar but not identical. Military cases are generally made from thicker brass than commercial cases; this reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders[15]), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56 mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 MPa (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 MPa (62,366 psi) for 5.56 mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 MPa (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[16] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56 mm NATO.
The 5.56 mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Rock River Arms)[17] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56 mm NATO chamber specification.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56 mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[18] Using 5.56 mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and SAAMI recommends against the practice.[19][20] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14 (marked ".223 cal"), but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm NATO ammunition.[21]
It should also be noted that the upper receiver (to which the barrel with its chamber are attached) and the lower receiver are entirely separate parts in AR-15 style rifles. If the lower receiver has either .223 or 5.56 stamped on it, it does not guarantee the upper assembly is rated for the same caliber, because the upper and the lower receiver in same rifle can, and frequently do, come from different manufacturers – particularly with rifles sold to civilians or second-hand rifles.
In more practical terms, as of 2010 most AR-15 parts suppliers engineer their complete upper assemblies (not to be confused with stripped uppers where the barrel is not included) to support both calibers in order to protect their customers from injuries and to protect their businesses from litigation following the said injuries.
Mike
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The only difference between 5.56 MM and .223 is in freebore of the rifling ahead of the chamber, not in the chamber itself. I challenge to to provide otherwise. Thus far you have not. Bill T.
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I will play. The brass on 5.56 is thicker allowing less powder. Thats one difference.
They are similar but not identical as you think.
Thus I proved a difference plus 5.56 has crimped primers where .223 does not. Oh my another difference.
I will stop now because you seriously believe they are the same cart. but they are not.
Scott G.
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What you have in effect "proved" is a difference in BRASS not CHAMBERS. I never said they were the same cartridge. I said they were the same chambers. Don't take my word for it, look it up just as I did. You'll find the exact same thing I posted. The chamber dimensions are exactly the same. I should know, I've been shooting the same interchangeably for the last 40 years and I'm still waiting to encounter my first problem??? What else do you wish to educate me on? Bill T.
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Grommit, your bolt lube method is shared (and preached) by Evan Marshall, the famous ex-cop firearms consultant and SWAT trainer, and trainer of various elite Federal outfits using M-16/AR-15. LOTS of his trainee's guns broke down, but his never did because he runs them WET. He uses Mobil 1 Synthetic oil from the auto store, or whatever is handy. In the field when needed they dripped oil from the jeep engine dipstick!....................elsullo
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These are chamber dimensions, not case dimensions
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