A little worked up?

[boarder4life81]

So I understand law enforcement has it's dangers. Being prior military, having several friends in the LEO community and testing to become one myself I get that. Kind of goes with the job. This seemed a little extreme and ill orchestrated ( <broken link removed> ) and I can say this as I witnessed it unfold 100 yards away with binoculars. Of course local media is twisting the story and details to where nothing makes sense. One sentence the guy is in his front yard loading a pellet gun (while it points at his neighbors yard opposed to a busy road) then it says he is charged with discharging a firearm. From my vantage point there were 5 LEO's hanging out behind a neighbors truck and no one approached the house until SWAT came out. As soon as the SWAT van pulled into the driveway a female came out appearing confused about what was going on and shortly followed by a male who appeared to obey commands to get down, turn around, and spread his arms out. If police are going to start responding to all civil/domestic disturbances this way it only makes you wonder what they would have done if it was a real firearm.

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[JackThompson]

It's ALL about flexing authority and creating the illusion of a crime.

If you freak out enough while someone is talking calmly, people will start to think the guy must be being irrational.

We ALL need to respond to this activity like rational, responsible, freethinking human beings and be utterly outraged at this behavior.

We need to write congressmen, police chiefs, newspapers, create more viral YouTube videos.

Match this fascist propaganda outburst for outburst.

Or it will get to the point that they can arrest you for thought crimes, and your neighbors will turn on you out of fear of this oppressive system.

Only together can we turn something like this around.

Or just watch. Until it comes to your doorstep, where your neighbors will watch.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

Can't justify funding grant requests for over the top military style equipment if you don't use it. That pellet gun incident was a gold mine for the EPD. How else can they justify their budget when UO students aren't wilding after a football game?

And if they HAVE the over the top military style equipment, they look pretty silly if they don't bust it out now and then. And what better time to bust it out than when a guy has a pellet gun in his yard?

 

[Kable]

Wow that's lame that firing a bb gun or pellet gun is equivalent I'm punishment to discharging a real firearm. There should be nothing against firing a bb gun or pellet gun on your own property

 

[boarder4life81]

So it took a little time to find, but here are the CITIES definitions. Technically a paintball gun is considered a firearm, how lame. Remember these are city codes, not county or state.
4.885 Weapons - Discharging Firearms. Except on established ranges, no
person other than a peace officer in line of duty shall discharge a gun,
including spring or air-actuated pellet gun, air gun or BB gun, or other
weapon which propels a projectile by use of gunpowder or other explosive,
jet, or rocket propulsion.
4.890 Weapons - Definitions for Sections 4.888 and 4.889. As used in sections
4.888 and 4.889:"Firearm" means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to
expel a projectile by the action of smokeless powder and which is readily
capable of use as a weapon.

What I don't get is how the city can label things like pellet guns as a "firearm" when they aren't even regulated by the ATF? I can go online, buy a pellet gun and have it shipped straight to my doorstep (pellet guns - Walmart.com) no FFL needed for the interstate transfer, yet the city says it's a firearm. By the cities definition a blow gun could almost be considered a firearm. Next we'll hear about a 6th grader assaulting a classmate with a firearm spit wad shooter.

 

[Nwcid]

Just remember those laws include Airsoft guns too.............

 

[AlphaCoyote]

I was on a murder jury not long ago. The murder weapon was a ball peen hammer. You wouldn't want to see what a hammer can do to a woman's head. Deadly for sure. I had to look at the autopsy photos. But if I'm in my yard banging away with a ball peen hammer, the city won't care and the SWAT team won't show.

Then we have a pellet gun.

There's a larger point here: Lots of things are potentially deadly tools. Firearms are just one category. It makes no sense to single them out.

In other countries where firearms are less available, machetes are the weapon of choice. We should call the big ones "assault machetes" and have 60 Minutes do a show. Diane Feinstein would be a great interview.

But here it was a pellet gun. A pellet gun. And a SWAT team. And the police. And an arrest. And multiple criminal charges. And the news.

 

[jfw]

Hey! You could put an eye out with one of those things!!!

In all seriousness, It doesn't appear that they knew it was a pellet gun till after the fact.

Also, I am sure the people that called made this out to be more than it was....

 

[jfw]

I was on a murder jury not long ago. The murder weapon was a ball peen hammer. You wouldn't want to see what a hammer can do to a woman's head. Deadly for sure. I had to look at the autopsy photos. But if I'm in my yard banging away with a ball peen hammer, the city won't care and the SWAT team won't show.

Then we have a pellet gun.


There's a larger point here: Lots of things are potentially deadly tools. Firearms are just one category. It makes no sense to single them out.


But unfortunately the left has made guns into horrific killing machines with minds of their own. I have had many arguments with the dangers of other overlooked items (edged weapons specifically) to no avail... I had someone telling me that knives could not hurt people like guns can.
In other countries where firearms are less available, machetes are the weapon of choice. We should call the big ones "assault machetes" and have 60 Minutes do a show. Diane Feinstein would be a great interview.

But here it was a pellet gun. A pellet gun. And a SWAT team. And the police. And an arrest. And multiple criminal charges. And the news.

But unfortunately, the left has created guns in horrific killing machines with minds of thier own. I have had many arguments about the dangers of other objects (especially edged weapons) to no avail. there are so many misconceptions that the elitest put out when in fact they understand nothing of weapons or selfdefense for that matter.

 

[davemata]

If police are going to start responding to all civil/domestic disturbances this way it only makes you wonder what they would have done if it was a real firearm.

Not really, they'd just start executing people, and get a free paid vacation.

No real wondering, it happens often enough to not even be amazing anymore.

 

[davemata]

I can go online, buy a pellet gun and have it shipped straight to my doorstep (pellet guns - Walmart.com) no FFL needed for the interstate transfer, yet the city says it's a firearm.

Is a muzzle loader a firearm?

You can order one online and have it shipped direct.

 

[fallingblock]

He'll get slapped with a firearm related punishment and they'll take away his rights to own/posses anything-ever.

I'll wait until the facts all come out on this one.

One thing I have never understood about police policy: hypothetical.

Police get a call on a subject sitting on his front porch with a rifle pointed, generally, at his neighbors house. Police show up and find out it's a pellet gun. They run the guys history and find that he has no criminal record, yet they still hand-cuff him and take him away. Why is this?

What ever happened to the police showing up and telling you that there has been a complaint, possibly giving you a ticket and moving on with everyone's day? Why is it that everyone gets cuffed, a ride in the back of a police car, mugshots and a short sit in a jail cell? Thus making what could have been a simple ticket; into bail and possibly court costs down the road.

 

[davemata]

Imagine this, your job is to arrest people and write tickets. Your job performance evaluations are based on that.

You show up to a call, you do not effect an arrest, your job performance evaluation and future chances of promotion and higher pay are reduced.

It's business.

 

[fallingblock]

Dave, do you know for a fact that arrest rates and # of tickets issued are part of a LEO's performance evaluation or are you speculating?

Just clairifying, that's all.

 

[jfw]

Dave, do you know for a fact that arrest rates and # of tickets issued are part of a LEO's performance evaluation or are you speculating?

Just clairifying, that's all.

He is somewhat correct but it does not apply across the board.

 

[JVK]

Hardly speculation... where have been? You might want to look into even the most recent stuff, NY's 'stop and frisk' policy.

 

[davemata]

Dave, do you know for a fact that arrest rates and # of tickets issued are part of a LEO's performance evaluation or are you speculating?

Just clairifying, that's all.

I've been told this directly from LEO in multiple areas and different times of my life, LEOs in the following PDs:
Newark, CA
Reno, NV
Sparks, NV
Boston, MA
Somerville, MA

In addition from State police in both CA and MA, and county mounties in:
Washoe County, NV
Sussex County, MA
Suffolk County, MA

Articles on the act:
Fired NYPD officer blames ticket quotas for fake summonses - NYPOST.com
<broken link removed>
WUSA 9: Memo Reveals ACPD Ticket ?Quota? | ARLnow.com
Ex-officers: APD had arrest quotas | www.ajc.com

What are performance goals, but another term for KPI. KPI is a term I use at work all the time, "Key Performance Indicators," or the metrics used to determine if a particular thing is performing as expected, under performing, or over performing. Decisions related to that thing are then based off those KPIs.

The articles about result from just a simple googling to provider link fodder and covers both ticketing quotas and arrest quotas. Quotas are another term for performance goals, and performance goals are KPI. Meaning, these are performance indicators used for determining administrative actions.


There have been scholarly articles referring to it as a known quantity, and offering methods to go beyond it such as:
Mastrofski, S. D. 1996. Measuring Police Performance in Public
Encounters. In Quantifying Quality In Policing, edited by L.
T. Hoover. Washington, D.C.: Police Executive Research
Forum

So, that's a little bit of "proof," granted it's not a smoking gun, which in this case would be reams of Administrative documentation outlining the exact method for creating and administrating the above mentioned quotas. I doubt that would come to the top, short of a whistleblower putting their life on the line. For me, this is good enough.

 

[fallingblock]

great info dave.. Thanks for the links

 

[nwwoodsman]

I've been told this directly from LEO in multiple areas and different times of my life, LEOs in the following PDs:
Newark, CA
Reno, NV
Sparks, NV
Boston, MA
Somerville, MA

In addition from State police in both CA and MA, and county mounties in:
Washoe County, NV
Sussex County, MA
Suffolk County, MA............

Geesh! What are you? A news reporter or something?

 

[davemata]

Geesh! What are you? A news reporter or something?

I'm a curious person.