.458 x 2 American?

[Spitpatch]

I do not own a .458 American. But my best friend (since high school) does, and I have shot it quite a bit. I DO own a Siamese Mauser conversion to .45-70 (and have shot it quite a bit). If I had been aware of the American, I might never have bought the Mauser.

The American holds some "advantages" against the old war-horse when considering these cartridges in a bolt gun. Firstly is simplification of the "build": Acquire a short bolt action (first advantage: the American fits in a much smaller bread box), open the bolt face to standard belted magnum, acquire a barrel, and minor feed rail work gets it all running. If you start with a short Magnum action (think .350 Rem Mag), you save on opening the bolt face AND rail work. The Siamese conversion is somewhat more involved, especially when your short action came with sporter wood already, drilled and tapped already, nice swing safety already, etc., etc., etc. My friend built his American on a short-action 700, topped it with a Leupold 1.5-5x and it is a VERY tidy and VERY powerful package of artillery.

As to ballistics and loading, The two cartridges are nearly twins, with any difference being much less than the rather small difference between them (loaded to full-tilt boogie) and the .458. Ackley shows in his book (from the American) a 300g bullet at 2500fps (but Ackley data needs to be "interpreted" in numerous cases). More down to earth, he shows the 405g to be capable of 2050fps. Lets keep in mind that powders are now at least of more variety and probably of more capability than in Parker's day. (IMR3031 is still a favorite for running the .45-70 at speed). Orygun's explorations with RL-7 may be a good example of something that could improve over the old stalwarts.

I have a small collection of "dream" cartridges over my loading bench (dummys that I have constructed, or examples provided by friends of their favorites). The .458 American is in that gang. It just makes so much absolute sense.

 

[Spitpatch]

While this cartridge is similar to the .450 Marlin, in a bolt action rifle, it effectively "splits the difference" between a full-house, "top-end" .45-70 load (405-grain JSP) and the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Many American shooters seem to prefer the .450 Marlin because it is a lever-action carbine. I like the .45-70, but if I had my "druthers" I believe that I would prefer the solid lockup of a bolt-action rifle and its ability to accept and accurately shoot more loads than the "flexing" lever-action carbine.

Before you jump all over me for not acknowledging the "quicker follow-up shot" capability of the lever gun, the bolt action will always lead the way in accurate shot placement. This often eliminates the need for the "follow-up" shot.

Thoughts?

While I would agree that in GENERAL terms, a bolt gun MIGHT be a better choice if precision accuracy is desired, I tend to shun absolutes ("always") regarding this train of thought, based on my own experience, and with some significant observed history in print.

Anyone old enough to have perused magazines from a not-so far away time will find numerous photos and significant amounts of published match results from benchrest competitions where chief competitors (and winners) have on their sandbags a firearm with NO penile "projection" sticking out of the side of it that one has to grasp in order to load a cartridge. A good number of legends in benchrest not only held their own, but quite often swept the field with an action attached to the rear of their barrels that might surprise persons who hold to absolutes regarding action types and accuracy: the Marlin 336. This action only walked off the field when CARTRIDGE development (primarily), and bench actions became machinists' intense devoted hobby (secondarily). The .219 Zipper, Donaldson Wasp and others in the 336 did have a run that cannot be ignored.

I have a "few" fat-barreled varmint guns: Some are factory guns, some are custom. Some are not bolt actions, but rather (an action that has been given less air-time in this discussion somehow) single shots. All these guns are scientifically accurate (because they have been "scientifically" loaded for, tuned, and modified to some extent). They have been "coddled" to perform at their best.

But if I want to make an impression regarding accuracy at my bench (an impression lost on neophytes, but dramatic on persons with some experience, and devastating to those adhering to absolutes), I bring out a box-stock unmodified ("un-coddled") Marlin 336 that rolled off the line in 1948. This is not a Donaldson Wasp. It is the "pedestrian" thutty-thutty. This does not have a fat barrel. In fact, its barrel has the "horrible offending carbine band" strapped to the front of it that many (of belief in absolutes) think prohibits any level of accuracy. This has no custom trigger. This has no high-power scope (I do admit to attaching a Lyman Alaskan 2.5x with post reticle). I also admit to handloading for it, but nothing approaching anything scientific. This gun, as described, holds its own against the fatties, and walks on a couple. It is also not really an exceptional "one in a million" example, as I have heard of (and witnessed) other 336's (most of older manufacture) that also drop some jaws.

There are (at least) two other lever gun actions renowned for accuracy that "walked on" numerous contemporary bolt actions of their day: The Savage 99 and the Winchester 88 (the Savage probably better, but only as a result of its superior trigger). Absolutes fell by the wayside decisively in both these examples.

And, now (lest I be accused of not remaining on topic: I promise not to invoke a "russian" investigation as appeared here) for the .45-70: My Marlin Guide Gun (336 action type) retains most of its legendary accuracy heritage despite being a relatively new rifle. Groups from it are indiscernible from those produced by the Siamese Mauser. If there ever was any detectable difference in group size (get ready for an absolute), it NEVER would result in "often eliminating the need for a followup shot".

Such need is (ALMOST always) caused by the biological organism attached to the rear of the action.

 

[osprey]

If you are trying to punch closely spaced holes in paper at longer ranges I suppose a bolt may give you some tangible advantage. However, for hunting purposes I doubt that incremental gain in accuracy will make much difference for the ranges I would be willing to shoot game at with either cartridge. We usually are talking very large tough game with these cartridges and sometimes toothy with claws. Even if one was capable of making a 250yd plus shot with these cartridges, I don't think it is advisable considering the quarry.

 

[jordanka16]

The ballistics if the .45-70 lend itself to being used in a lever action I think, it's not a flat shooting cartridge, even really hot loads are not flat. The extra accuracy of a bolt action is probably a moot point, and I like being able to top off really quickly.

There are also several single shot .45-70s around that are every bit as accurate as a bolt action.

Combine that with the fact that the .45-70 has been around for at least 140 years, and there is plenty of brass, load data, and common factory ammo, I don't see a need for something in between it and the .458 wm.

 

[rossi]

Original post appears to convey wanting a bolt gun for the 458x2 American. The 458x2 is by far the better choice in a bolt gun over the 450 Marlin as brass is everywhere to cut down at 2-inches. It is a handloader's cartridge for sure and loading to bolt gun pressures (58K-62K) will yield a potent hitter with 350gr loadings at 2,300 fps and 450 gr loadings at 1,900 fps. This set up would yield between 3,600 ft-lbs-4,000 ft-lbs at the muzzle on average, enough for anything standing in your way. While the 45-70 has been utilized in siamese mausers and such it is not well suited to a bolt gun and needs a great deal of gunsmithing unlike the 458x2. The 45-70 is really the only way to go in a tube feed lever for ultimate horsepower in a .458 lever loading. Both Marlin 95s and Winchester 86s along Henry rifles support the cartridge well. Several older Winchester Big Bore 94 were converted to 458x2 as their loading gate and action could not handle the 45-70 rim. Interestingly the Win Big Bore 94 action is quite stout and rated for 52K psi and can take greater pressure than the Marlin action. Today the current Win 94 is offered in 450 Marlin (probably loaded around 40K psi), the current 94 action does not appear to be the same action design as the fat sided 94 Big Bores of the 1980s, which were specifically designed for the 307, 356, 375 Win at the 52K psi level. Loading the 45-70, 458x2 or 450 Marlin with proper bullets for use in bolt or lever would effectively put down elk, brownies and moose at reasonable shooting distances (100-150 yds) with little fuss. All are really quite capable in the right hands.

 

[Captain O]

Original post appears to convey wanting a bolt gun for the 458x2 American. The 458x2 is by far the better choice in a bolt gun over the 450 Marlin as brass is everywhere to cut down at 2-inches. It is a handloader's cartridge for sure and loading to bolt gun pressures (58K-62K) will yield a potent hitter with 350gr loadings at 2,300 fps and 450 gr loadings at 1,900 fps. This set up would yield between 3,600 ft-lbs-4,000 ft-lbs at the muzzle on average, enough for anything standing in your way. While the 45-70 has been utilized in siamese mausers and such it is not well suited to a bolt gun and needs a great deal of gunsmithing unlike the 458x2. The 45-70 is really the only way to go in a tube feed lever for ultimate horsepower in a .458 lever loading. Both Marlin 95s and Winchester 86s along Henry rifles support the cartridge well. Several older Winchester Big Bore 94 were converted to 458x2 as their loading gate and action could not handle the 45-70 rim. Interestingly the Win Big Bore 94 action is quite stout and rated for 52K psi and can take greater pressure than the Marlin action. Today the current Win 94 is offered in 450 Marlin (probably loaded around 40K psi), the current 94 action does not appear to be the same action design as the fat sided 94 Big Bores of the 1980s, which were specifically designed for the 307, 356, 375 Win at the 52K psi level. Loading the 45-70, 458x2 or 450 Marlin with proper bullets for use in bolt or lever would effectively put down elk, brownies and moose at reasonable shooting distances (100-150 yds) with little fuss. All are really quite capable in the right hands.

The .458 American is a better cartridge when loaded with the 405-grain .458" diameter slugs. Penetration is key and it will stop any Alaskan Brown (Grizzly) Bear or Polar Bear. It can always be loaded with the lighter bullets and used on everything else on the North American continent.

 

[orygun]

The .458 American is a better cartridge when loaded with the 405-grain .458" diameter slugs. Penetration is key and it will stop any Alaskan Brown (Grizzly) Bear or Polar Bear. It can always be loaded with the lighter bullets and used on everything else on the North American continent.

The only fly in the ointment here is the fact that most 405gr bullets are designed around standard 45-70 loadings, 11-1300fps or so, and don't have a very thick jacket. If you plow a bullet like that into a big bodied and big boned animal around 1800-2000+ fps the bullet very well may come apart before it gets deep enough to do it's job. Unfortunately most .458" bullets are focused on either 45-70 speeds or 458 Win Mag speeds. There's not much in the middle except for a couple of Hornady bullets and they are only 350gr. I would likely work with one of these if I did another 45-70 unless I was going for big bears. Then I'd crank up some loads with a 500gr bullet.

No bullet you choose will make these cartridges a flat shooter.

 

[osprey]

Why use anthing but hardcast? My 45-70 is stoked with 420 gr hardcast at a mundane 1700 fps. I figure it is all I will ever need.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Why use anthing but hardcast? My 45-70 is stoked with 420 gr hardcast at a mundane 1700 fps. I figure it is all I will ever need.View attachment 411768

Indeed. I'd buy a box of .22lr but it isn't offered in hard cast.

 

[Spitpatch]

Because this gun likes 20:1.

 

[Spitpatch]

Orygun (despite his chronic fascination with the mundane .30-06) brings up a very salient point regarding bullets suitable for the full-tilt-boogie aspect of .45-70 loads.

In the Siamese Mauser, I struggled with this dearth of .458 bullets offered in a jacket thickness and integrity suitable for this gun. As Orygun notes, a gap exists between the "Africa" stuff (for the .458 Winchester and .460 Weatherby), and the vast majority of .458 bullets that are designed quite honestly for Trapdoor Springfields.

I believed my problems were solved when I discovered a one-man business that addressed this gap perfectly. Alpha LaFranck bullets offered his custom swaged .458 bullets in any jacket style or thickness one's little heart desired, and one line item was a "sample pack" with all thicknesses and styles presented. With extensive tests, I settled on his 350g Spitzer (yes, Spitzer!!!) in a medium jacket thickness, complete with cannelure in the proper place for ideal function in the Mauser. At 2200fps MV, this expanded nicely, penetrated well (at 100 yards), and was a nice partner for my barrel where accuracy was concerned.

Then, his little company disappeared. I think he went to the happy swaging press in the sky. My hunt is back on, and the Nosler Partition at 300gr was attractive (unknown if still made???), but I'd like a bit more weight (not 405), and boy was that spitzer deal sweet!


Not to disparage hard cast: It is my bullet of choice in the Guide Gun at the velocities I shoot in that light gun. Best limb trimming device on the planet.

 

[Argonaut]

Orygun (despite his chronic fascination with the mundane .30-06) brings up a very salient point regarding bullets suitable for the full-tilt-boogie aspect of .45-70 loads.

In the Siamese Mauser, I struggled with this dearth of .458 bullets offered in a jacket thickness and integrity suitable for this gun. As Orygun notes, a gap exists between the "Africa" stuff (for the .458 Winchester and .460 Weatherby), and the vast majority of .458 bullets that are designed quite honestly for Trapdoor Springfields.

I believed my problems were solved when I discovered a one-man business that addressed this gap perfectly. Alpha LaFranck bullets offered his custom swaged .458 bullets in any jacket style or thickness one's little heart desired, and one line item was a "sample pack" with all thicknesses and styles presented. With extensive tests, I settled on his 350g Spitzer (yes, Spitzer!!!) in a medium jacket thickness, complete with cannelure in the proper place for ideal function in the Mauser. At 2200fps MV, this expanded nicely, penetrated well (at 100 yards), and was a nice partner for my barrel where accuracy was concerned.

Then, his little company disappeared. I think he went to the happy swaging press in the sky. My hunt is back on, and the Nosler Partition at 300gr was attractive (unknown if still made???), but I'd like a bit more weight (not 405), and boy was that spitzer deal sweet!


Not to disparage hard cast: It is my bullet of choice in the Guide Gun at the velocities I shoot in that light gun. Best limb trimming device on the planet.

That is very close to my loading for the 458 Win Carbine and I don't have to make brass. If I ever want more I have that ability. 458 solids are fun for punching holes. After years of dealing with leaded 22 barrels, I shoot jacketed bullets in everything. The idea of casting bullets is very attractive and I have lead for free but I see no reason to lead up a high quality barrel. I did some swedging decades ago.......(Herter's used to sell the equipment) and it was a lot of fun. Today, I have mostly moved over to the excellent copper bullets done by people like Barnes but still shoot particions in some calibers.

 

[rossi]

For jacketed bullets l have had great results using Hawk bullets. They have a huge selection of both soft point lead nose spitzers and flat nose for tube feeds. They are tough, high expansion and high weight retention bullets. Their bonding process keeps jacket and core together under extreme close up shots and expand at distance 2x-3x initial diameter, especially on flat nose. They offer a nice selection of jacket thickness depending on need of expansion and needed penetration. I used a .338 250 grain on a big bodied 5x5 Colorado bull elk with .035-inch jacket at 250 yards and went completely though both shoulders and exited. Elk dropped where it stood. Exit showed substantial wounding. Bullets for .458 and 444 Marlin (.429) both with variable jacket thicknesses are available in both spitzer and flat nose. I have a 444 Marlin and have used 300 grain on elk as well. Give em try, I think you will be pleased with the results on game.

 

[Captain O]

I like the idea of 500-grain hard cast bullets. Driving these at the higher-end of the .458 American velocity range will quickly stop the larger creatures of the Ursine persuasion.

The more penetration, the better.

 

[rossi]

You'll get the same result with a Barnes 400 or 450 grain solid leaving more space for powder.

 

[osprey]

At 1600-1800 fps a 400-420 gr hardcast will penetrate any bear alive stem to stern, sideways or any other way. Even at subsonic velocities these projectiles have impressive penetration.

 

[Captain O]

At 1600-1800 fps a 400-420 gr hardcast will penetrate any bear alive stem to stern, sideways or any other way. Even at subsonic velocities these projectiles have impressive penetration.

The penetration of the big bears is what provides the neurological disruption that stops any possible aggression from the creature. I'm certain that this is the primary objective.

 

[rossi]

If l were shooting a tube feed lever on a large brown bear, I would shoot an expanding bullet like the Hawk 450 grain initially and follow up with some 400+ grain hard cast loaded similar to Buffalo Bore or Garrett 45-70. In a bolt gun I would shoot 458x2 with 400 grain Swift A-frame initial shot and load 400 or 450 Barnes solids on follow ups. 400+ grain hard cast loads at 1200 FPS from a 480 Ruger will penetrate through any bear inside 75 yards.

 

[Captain O]

If l were shooting a tube feed lever on a large brown bear, I would shoot an expanding bullet like the Hawk 450 grain initially and follow up with some 400+ grain hard cast loaded similar to Buffalo Bore or Garrett 45-70. In a bolt gun I would shoot 458x2 with 400 grain Swift A-frame initial shot and load 400 or 450 Barnes solids on follow ups. 400+ grain hard cast loads at 1200 FPS from a 480 Ruger will penetrate through any bear inside 75 yards.

Those are the ranges in which most large bears have been taken. (They aren't usually a long-range proposition).

 

[orygun]

You guys are killin me! You're causing deep feelings of regret within me about trading my Browning away so many years ago and that's a double edged blade as the gun I received in trade is a gun I doubt I'll ever part with. I've longed for another 45-70 almost as long as I've been without. Spitpatch had a NIB version that I drooled over for quite a while and now another friend has a Ruger #1 for a very reasonable price.
This is the what I had and it looked even better in person. That's a Leupold 4x on it. Kurt at H&K Guns throated it so I could seat the bullets long and I started filling cases up with powder.

Nice toes, huh?