.458 x 2 American?

[Captain O]

You guys are killin me! You're causing deep feelings of regret within me about trading my Browning away so many years ago and that's a double edged blade as the gun I received in trade is a gun I doubt I'll ever part with. I've longed for another 45-70 almost as long as I've been without. Spitpatch had a NIB version that I drooled over for quite a while and now another friend has a Ruger #1 for a very reasonable price.
This is the what I had and it looked even better in person. That's a Leupold 4x on it. Kurt at H&K Guns throated it so I could seat the bullets long and I started filling cases up with powder.
View attachment 411886
Nice toes, huh?

A falling-block in .458 American? I'll take it!

 

[Spitpatch]

I like the idea of 500-grain hard cast bullets. Driving these at the higher-end of the .458 American velocity range will quickly stop the larger creatures of the Ursine persuasion.

The more penetration, the better.

Now THERE is a man with an EXPERIMENT on his hands.

 

[Spitpatch]

Lots of "if I wuz givn da chance".. stories here. I'd expect a real partner to relate his true experience.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Lots of "if I wuz givn da chance".. stories here. I'd expect a real partner to relate his true experience.

I got a paper cut from a reloading manual once.

 

[Spitpatch]

I got a paper cut from a reloading manual once.

Brothers.

 

[osprey]

If l were shooting a tube feed lever on a large brown bear, I would shoot an expanding bullet like the Hawk 450 grain initially and follow up with some 400+ grain hard cast loaded similar to Buffalo Bore or Garrett 45-70. In a bolt gun I would shoot 458x2 with 400 grain Swift A-frame initial shot and load 400 or 450 Barnes solids on follow ups. 400+ grain hard cast loads at 1200 FPS from a 480 Ruger will penetrate through any bear inside 75 yards.

I could see possibly using the expanding/hard cast combo if I was indeed hunting the bear. If just for bear protection I would skip the expanding bullets and go all hard cast. As with any big game hunting, good shot placement will overcome other percieved weaknesses in the cartridge bullet combo. Both my brother in laws reside in AK and have shot many griz as well as a respectable number or large coastal brownies. One just got back from a self guided brown bear/deer hunt on Kodiak island. Their party took a couple bear and a dozen Sitka blacktail using the same rifles for both. I am not sure of the bullet choice but I do know the caliber. It will please Orygun to know they go nowhere without their little pea-shooter 30-06 rifles. If I were to go on a brownie hunt I would choose a rifle capable of propelling a swift a frame to velocities that produce hydrostatic shock as well as deep penetration. Probably a 375 H&H or a 338 Win mag. The cartridges mentioned here, while capable of killing large bears, do not produce the hydrostatic shock with the large heavy bullets resulting in a slower incapacitation unless the cns is struck. A well constructed 275-350 gr expanding bullet (think hawk custom) traveling around 2400fps in a 45-70 or the 458x2 maybe worthy of consideration though. The loss in sectional density may hinder penetration however. Now that would be a interesting experiment!

 

[orygun]

Lots of "if I wuz givn da chance".. stories here. I'd expect a real partner to relate his true experience.

Unfortunately it's true that the Indians would have called me a vegetarian. While I'm a good shooter and like to spend a lot of time in the woods. I must reek or something cuz I rarely see anything in season... Out of season? I've seen darn near everything, and up close, too!

 

[orygun]

A falling-block in .458 American? I'll take it!

While I'm sure it's possible to do a conversion, the rifle shown was a 45-70. The rimmed cartridge works exceptionally well in a falling block.

I think a falling block in any chambering is cool!

 

[Argonaut]

I could see possibly using the expanding/hard cast combo if I was indeed hunting the bear. If just for bear protection I would skip the expanding bullets and go all hard cast. As with any big game hunting, good shot placement will overcome other percieved weaknesses in the cartridge bullet combo. Both my brother in laws reside in AK and have shot many griz as well as a respectable number or large coastal brownies. One just got back from a self guided brown bear/deer hunt on Kodak island. Their party took a couple bear and a dozen Sitka blacktail using the same rifles for both. I am not sure of the bullet choice but I do know the caliber. It will please Orygun to know they go nowhere without their little pea-shooter 30-06 rifles. If I were to go on a brownie hunt I would choose a rifle capable of propelling a swift a frame to velocities that produce hydrostatic shock as well as deep penetration. Probably a 375 H&H or a 338 Win mag. The cartridges mentioned here, while capable of killing large bears, do not produce the hydrostatic shock with the large heavy bullets resulting in a slower incapacitation unless the cns is struck. A well constructed 275-350 gr expanding bullet (think hawk custom) traveling around 2400fps in a 45-70 or the 458x2 maybe worthy of consideration though. The loss in sectional density may hinder penetration however. Now that would be a interesting experiment!

The real Alaskan hunters......the native Americans, use more 30-06 than anything. They have a lot of jokes about hunters that spend a lot of money coming to there home with silly rifles. My buddy lives and guides on Kodak year around, uses a 338 Win Mag built on a P17 action for everything.

 

[Captain O]

The real Alaskan hunters......the native Americans, use more 30-06 than anything. They have a lot of jokes about hunters that spend a lot of money coming to there home with silly rifles. My buddy lives and guides on Kodak year around, uses a 338 Win Mag built on a P17 action for everything.

Agreed. I adore .30-'06. For 95-98% of North American rifle use, the venerable '06 gets it done.

 

[Captain O]

The .458 American will properly chamber in a .458 Winchester, will it not?
(The .45 Colt/.454 Casull analogy leaps to mind).

 

[rossi]

I can appreciate those stories as many Native American guides in the lower 48 chuckle about the typical deer rifle used by hunters being 7mm mag, 300 mags, etc. They prefer the 25-06 Rem as plenty, l can't disagree. But for the sake of discussion what is a "silly rifle" when it comes to Alaska? There is a distinct difference between a rifle used for hunting and one used as a stopper by a guide. I'm sure the .338 Win Mag would serve as a vary good mountain grizz rifle and a coastal brown bear firearm for the hunter. Probably the same for guide, but perhaps a 375 H&H or 375 Ruger would be a common choice for the guide all the way to 416 or 458 for some. I have not had the pleasure of hunting coastal brown bears or grizzly but have seen what a 250 grain .338 does on elk and feel it is more than adequate for either as a hunter. I would definitely prefer the 338 Win over the 30-06 on big bears as one typically carries 1,000 ft-lbs more energy from the muzzle to all practical hunting distances. I like the 30-06, but it wouldn't be my first choice for either Alaskan brown bear or moose when l'm spending $15K plus for that hunt plus travel expenses. I would think a 300 mag would be a better minimum as a hunter. Only one man's opinion.

 

[Argonaut]

The big magnums (off which I have many) are only useful for extending range. My 7mm mag is a wonderful long range game rifle but at typical costal or woods type hunting range a good 7X57 or 7mm 08 is just as effective. One of my favorite calibers is my 378 Weatherby, but I have never been able to recover a bullet even when game (usually elk) is taken over 300 yards. That energy spent out the back side of an animal is actually waisted. It has over 6000 ft lbs of energy and throws a 270 grain spitzer over 3100 FPS. It does shoot very flat which is an advantage but the power is underutilized. Alaska hunting with few exceptions is not super long range and in self defense never is. Up close my 308 is just as effective as a 300 Magnum. Both loadings will waste energy expending it out the back side of an animal. There could be an argument about penetrating a thick bone skull but few hunting bullets are hard enough to be up to that job Even if there is enough energy available to do it. That is why solids are so commonly used on the most extreme game hunting. I am not recoil sensitive, my German Weatherby fits me perfectly and is very accurate or I wouldn't shoot anything close to it. I like the energy transmission available with a big bore caliber, that is why I have the 458 (and my 44 Magnum's) but even that is best illustrated at closer ranges.

 

[Captain O]

I looked it up and the .458 American could be fired in the .458 Winchester Magnum but it may lose a bit in the accuracy department. The long travel to engage the rifling may scar the chamber, but then again, it just may work with no damage at all.

 

[Argonaut]

I looked it up and the .458 American could be fired in the .458 Winchester Magnum but it may lose a bit in the accuracy department. The long travel to engage the rifling my scar the chamber, but then again, it just may work with no damage at all.

The question would be "Why?" 458 brass is plentiful and inexpensive.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The real Alaskan hunters......the native Americans, use more 30-06 than anything..

I don't know about that. I'd bet it'd be .22lr and then more recently .223/556 for a long time.

 

[Captain O]

The question would be "Why?" 458 brass is plentiful and inexpensive.

Because if the load is too light, the resulting "squib" effect may result in either poor accuracy or a bullet lodged in the barrel. Neither are good alternatives.

 

[Argonaut]

I don't know about that. I'd bet it'd be .22lr and then more recently .223/556 for a long time.

I have never seen an AR outside of law enforcement in the bush and kids use a 22 to shoot rabbits and ptarmigan.

 

[Argonaut]

Because if the load is too light, the resulting "squib" effect may result in either poor accuracy or a bullet lodged in the barrel. Neither are good alternatives.

I load light 458 for my carbine all the time......there are no problems like that at all.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I have never seen an AR outside of law enforcement in the bush and kids use a 22 to shoot rabbits and ptarmigan.

Well I'd continue to call yourself non-omnipotent.
And just for your information, the .223/556 can be fired from other than an AR.