.458 x 2 American?

[Captain O]

While this cartridge is similar to the .450 Marlin, in a bolt action rifle, it effectively "splits the difference" between a full-house, "top-end" .45-70 load (405-grain JSP) and the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Many American shooters seem to prefer the .450 Marlin because it is a lever-action carbine. I like the .45-70, but if I had my "druthers" I believe that I would prefer the solid lockup of a bolt-action rifle and its ability to accept and accurately shoot more loads than the "flexing" lever-action carbine.

Before you jump all over me for not acknowledging the "quicker follow-up shot" capability of the lever gun, the bolt action will always lead the way in accurate shot placement. This often eliminates the need for the "follow-up" shot.

Thoughts?

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[No_Regerts]

Get a modern 1886 and you'll never worry about how strong that action is. Got an 1886 lightweight in 45-70 and its a heck of a timber elk rifle.

 

[No_Regerts]

It also depends on the casehead and its compatibility with a bolt action. If the case is rimmed, tube fed and single shot is the way to go. The 450 Marlin is belted and can headspace on the belt. You could also cram it into a short action and have a real handy little thumper.

BUT, if I were carrying a bolt gun, I'd want the capability to shoot further. I have no use for anything bigger than 338.

 

[Certaindeaf]

My 12 gauge is my .458.. and all the rest.

 

[Argonaut]

I was going to build a bolt 45/70 at one point, probably on a P14 or Siamese action but wound up with a manlicher 20" carbine in 458 Win Mag on a P17 action. I figured it was better to load light 458's than hot 45/70's. It is a wonderful quick moving rifle.45 caliber is very accurate for me, I think the heavy bullets fly more consistently than lighter higher velocity calibers.

 

[Argonaut]

It also depends on the casehead and its compatibility with a bolt action. If the case is rimmed, tube fed and single shot is the way to go. The 450 Marlin is belted and can headspace on the belt. You could also cram it into a short action and have a real handy little thumper.

BUT, if I were carrying a bolt gun, I'd want the capability to shoot further. I have no use for anything bigger than 338.

The British and Russians have been pretty successful with rimmed calibers and bolt actions. Even the antiquated 30-40 Kraigs feed like glass.

 

[No_Regerts]

The British and Russians have been pretty successful with rimmed calibers and bolt actions.

And they're a bunch of pinko commie bastids. I'd never slum a moisten nugget .

 

[Argonaut]

And they're a bunch of pinko commie bastids. I'd never slum a moisten nugget .

I am not a fan of Russian weaponry either.......but there is nothing wrong with a Kraig or Enfield

 

[orygun]

Kurt of H&K Guns in Forest Grove is/was a big fan of the 458 American. He and his dad made several rifles chambered in this caliber. I was shooting a falling block, single shot 45-70 at the time and the American didn't offer any advantages to me. If I'd have been interested in a bolt action it would have been a different story.

If you're chambering a gun these days I would say that the 450 Marlin would be a poor choice. The unusual rim of the Marlin really limits the brass supply. At least the American uses a normal belted magnum head/rim/belt dimensions and many can be used as a starting point.

 

[No_Regerts]

I am not a fan of Russian weaponry either.......but there is nothing wrong with a Kraig or Enfield

Except they look like they are made of used tractor parts.

 

[Argonaut]

Except they look like they are made of used tractor parts.

That is the Russian guns to me.

 

[The Heretic]

I was going to build a bolt 47/70 at one point, probably on a P14 or Siamese action but wound up with a manlicher 20" carbine in 458 Win Mag on a P17 action. I figured it was better to load light 458's than hot 47/70's. It is a wonderful quick moving rifle.45 caliber is very accurate for me, I think the heavy bullets fly more consistently than lighter higher velocity calibers.

You can do that with most cartridges, but in my experience, at least when I last had a reloading bench setup - the belted magnum cartridges were something of a pain to reload, especially resizing. Then there is the issue of the larger case capacity - but the .458 WM is more or less straight walled so maybe less of an issue there.

I just don't think I need anything more powerful than a hot .45-70 load in N. America, except maybe if I was worried about polar bears - since I do not plan on going that far north again, it is not an issue for me. I don't plan to hunt in Africa either - too expensive. To each their own though - YMMV.

 

[Argonaut]

You can do that with most cartridges, but in my experience, at least when I last had a reloading bench setup - the belted magnum cartridges were something of a pain to reload, especially resizing. Then there is the issue of the larger case capacity - but the .458 WM is more or less straight walled so maybe less of an issue there.

I just don't think I need anything more powerful than a hot .45-70 load in N. America, except maybe if I was worried about polar bears - since I do not plan on going that far north again, it is not an issue for me. I don't plan to hunt in Africa either - too expensive. To each their own though - YMMV.

I agree.......my 458 loads are no hotter than a hot rod 45/70.

 

[thorborg]

Except they look like they are made of used tractor parts.

Yah! but seven hundred and fifty years from now, those tractors will still plow your field!

That said, I would go with a modern 45 government. You don't have to use a frying pan for a front end on your cartridge any more. New pointy things with boat tails are available allowing it to shoot farther, print tighter, than your Grandpa's rig, lever machine notwithstanding. Doing this while using black powder, IMR 4198, shotgun powder, possibly even rice hulls.
The brass is available everywhere. Forever will they last when neck sized only!
There is an inexplicable uplift of the soul as you slide a half inch diameter, two and a half inch long cartridge into the chamber just before you punch a 3/4" star through 1/4 inch plate steel at 150 yards.
Rather like driving a well cared for muscle car down the street as everyone turns to give you a thumbs up.
Try stifling that smile!

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Except they look like they are made of used tractor parts.

LOL!!! "Used tractor parts!" SNORT, good one, classic!

The 7.62X54R cartridge feeds very smoothly in the Mosin! You just can't tell that due to the incredible clunkiness of the action! Feels the same with no cartridge at all.

 

[Argonaut]

LOL!!! "Used tractor parts!" SNORT, good one, classic!

The 7.62X54R cartridge feeds very smoothly in the Mosin! You just can't tell that due to the incredible clunkiness of the action! Feels the same with no cartridge at all.

I have never figured out the rabid attraction to Russian bolt guns other that they are cheep to buy. Years before they were imported by the thousands, I got my hands on one made by Westinghouse (I think, a good American manufacturer in any event) They were somewhat rare in those years and not as cheep as they became later. I was a Mauser guy. The Russian M91 was so sloppy and loose, I was afraid to shoot it particularly with the rather intense 7.62X54R ammunition. I had the same experiance with the Italian Carcano rifles. Years later while in my job in the Military, I had a week of introductory training into Russian weapon systems. There were several pieces of armor, artillery and small arms captured by the Israelies in the desert. The tanks looked like they were cut out of a chunk of cast steel with hand grinders....really rough looking, but the gears that swung the turret and gun were incredible quality. You could give the steel control wheel a flip and the turret would do a 360. It seems they prioritize what is important on there systems and ignore every thing else.

 

[thorborg]

I have never figured out the rabid attraction to Russian bolt guns other that they are cheep to buy. .

That's exactly the attraction. in my opine
I would replace the "cheap" with "low cost" as todays vernacular is understood, albeit doesn't help the deceptively crude appearance, and overall ugly duckling façade.
I'm thankful for them as this put in the hands of thousands like me when young, might have never had the chance to build and sporterize, turning some ugly ducklings into, maybe not swans, but at least a better looking duck.
Better to learn on a 75 buck cosmoline rough cast than trying mess with a 700 dollar rig you're afraid to mess up.

Same for my first 15 dollar car. I tried to rebuild the automatic transmission but couldn't seem to get it back together so instead of admitting that, decided it was a three speed with a Muncie shifter was really what I wanted.( three speeds are easy to rebuild) I didn't do too bad on the dents and paint job. Mom helped me with the upholstery and my little 56 & 1/2 Chevy sedan was looking real fine.

Couldn't of done it without a Cheap (low cost) car to start with.

 

[Mark W.]

from Wiki:

The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 moa).

This was shot with a Lee Enfield in .303 British a rimmed cartridge so close to a 30-40 Krag a Krag round can be made from the .303. A bolt action rifle.

I would like to see someone do this with a Lever action rifle.

 

[Captain O]

Please, back to the topic, gents...

 

[orygun]

While this cartridge is similar to the .450 Marlin, in a bolt action rifle, it effectively "splits the difference" between a full-house, "top-end" .45-70 load (405-grain JSP) and the .458 Winchester Magnum.

No offense intended, but I'm wondering if everyone is aware of what a "top-end" 45-70 load really is, especially when comparing to a cartridge with similar capacity and caliber?

Can anyone offer up any ballistics of a 458 American? I couldn't find any in my manuals and didn't bother to look it up. But it would be very interesting to see how the two stack up. I can't help to think the 450 Marlin is right there with them. All of this assumption is that the cases are loaded to a similar pressure.

I worked up some 405 gr handloads for a 45-70 with a 24" barrel using RL7 powder, stopping 3 grains short of max at 2050fps. The manual suggests that I could get 100fps out of those 3 grains and I see no reason to doubt that. That's 2150fps with a 405gr. The same book suggests a 500gr bullet at 1880fps. I only worked that bullet up to 1600-1650ish, but believe I could have pushed it that fast in my gun, too. These are loads out of the highest pressure stage listed.
The same manual (Lyman #46) and a Hornady one show about 2250 for a 405gr and 2060 for a 500gr bullet in the 458 Win Mag. Yeah, that's a step up, but there ain't much to split.