44 Rem Mag question

[Edmon]

I have a new to me Marlin 336 44mag rifle. I am loading Remington brass with 11.4 grains of unique with a berrys 240 grain flat point bullet. The bullet has a cannelure. My AOL is 1.610. This seats it right under the cannelure. I am applying a light crimp with a Lyman's crimping die. Should I shorten the AOL so the crimp is in the cannelure or is crimping under the canalure ok?

Thanks, Edmon

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[TTSX]

I tend to use cannelures, when provided, as a reference of where to seat the bullet for crimping and place the crimp right there. Unless I'm making custom ammo that has to be sat further out/in, I've found it to be a successful practice. YMMV.

 

[po18guy]

Run a few through, feeding and then extracting them, unfired. If the OAL remains the same and there is no bullet setback from feeding, it sounds good. In live fire, watch for pressure signs and if the bullets in the mag do not set back from recoil, then you are most likely fine.

In a rifle, the cannelure serves the opposite purpose as it does in a revolver. Crimp in a revolver keeps the unfired bullets from pulling out due to recoil impulse. In a rifle, it keeps the bullet from setting back, due to the forces of cycling and feeding into the chamber.

C-H makes a cannelure tool with hich you can roll a cannelure anywhere you like on a bullet of any caliber. Not terribly cheap at north of $100, but very effective.

 

[Spitpatch]

Run a few through, feeding and then extracting them, unfired. If the OAL remains the same and there is no bullet setback from feeding, it sounds good. In live fire, watch for pressure signs and if the bullets in the mag do not set back from recoil, then you are most likely fine.

In a rifle, the cannelure serves the opposite purpose as it does in a revolver. Crimp in a revolver keeps the unfired bullets from pulling out due to recoil impulse. In a rifle, it keeps the bullet from setting back, due to the forces of cycling and feeding into the chamber.

C-H makes a cannelure tool with hich you can roll a cannelure anywhere you like on a bullet of any caliber. Not terribly cheap at north of $100, but very effective.

In a tubular magazine rifle, it also keeps the bullet from setting back due to the spring tension in the tubular magazine, enhanced by recoil

What is the intended result from not crimping in the cannelure? I can imagine an attempt to get the bullet closer to the lands of the bore toward an accuracy improvement?

I am strongly recommending a moderate crimp IN the cannelure. If you are crimping the mouth hard enough to gain purchase on the bullet away from the cannelure, you are damaging the bullet. Any miniscule (probably unmeasurable) improvement in accuracy derived from seating the bullet out from the cannelure may well be negated by that damage.

 

[arrowshooter]

If you seat to 1.60" you should be right in there. That being said, please watch the amount of crimp that you use with those plated bullets and I would bump that load of Unique down to around 9.0 gr to start. Getting either of these wrong will end up leaving a lot of copper and lead in your barrel, and 11.4 gr is pretty hot for a plated bullet.

 

[Edmon]

I ran a few rounds thru and they seemed to load a little hard and the extraction was kind of hard as well. I then seated the bullets to 1.575 that is where they lined up with the cannelure and ran them thru the rifle again. They loaded smoother and the extraction was somewhat better as well. Thanks for the advice. I got my load data from Lyman reloading handbook 49 th edition. They suggested a starting at 10.8 grains and max of 12.00 grains unique. That is where I came up with 11.4 grains. I understand that lead bullets have a different powder rate but does platted bullets load differently than jacketed?
Thanks again for all input.

Edmon

 

[aasbra]

When using plated bullets, I would start with the manufacturer's recommendation. This is from Berry's website:

Load data from any load manual or website can be used. Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used as long as the following standards are adhered to:

• The data contains the correct grain weight of bullet.
• Berry's max recommended velocity is not exceeded. (This info is displayed on bullet boxes and product webpages.)
  • Standard Plate Bullets Max Velocity: 1,250 fps.
  • Thick-Plate Bullets (TP) Max Velocity: 1,500 fps.
• Do not over-crimp the bullet. Crimping so tight that bullet deformation occurs, or plating is separated causing visible exposure of the lead core will cause tumbling, key-holing, and reduced accuracy.

Berry's Bullets FAQ | Copper Plated Bullets

Discover all of Berry's Bullets Frequently Asked Questions about our bullets including load data, shipping, different types of bullets, sizing, and much more.

www.berrysmfg.com

If your manual doesn't list plated load data, I typically start with cast data for same/similar weight projectile and work up from there. Some plated bullet manufacturers suggest something in between cast lead and jacketed data IIRC. So yes, plated data is not to be exchanged with jacketed in my experience.

44 mag in a rifle can achieve velocities above those highlighted as the upper bounds for Berry's bullets specified on their website. I'd follow Arrowshooter's advice for a starting load.

In my experience, 8 grains of Unique with a 240 grain plated HP bullet was averaging around 1,000 fps in my 16" carbine; I think 9 grains was about 1,125 fps.

Have you chronographed your 11.6 grain load? If so, what was the velocity?

 

[arrowshooter]

This .

There is a very strong possibility that the pressure you are currently running at is sticking your brass in the chamber. If you need to stick with the 1.575" COAL definitely follow aasbra's advice and go with 8 gr.

 

[Edmon]

No I have not fired it or chrono it yet. Hopefully I will be able to go out and do this in the next week or two since it has rained. Thanks.

 

[aasbra]

I've always liked 8-9 grains of Unique, or a little less (IIRC) with Universal powder for my 44 mag plinking loads with a 240 grain projectile, both coated lead and plated. I use a similar load in 45 Colt with a 250 grain coated lead or plated projectile. Definitely more mild than a load with jacketed bullets and a slower powder, but Unique or Universal in this range is a nice plinking load for me in both handguns and rifles, and plenty of oomph to knock down steel silhouettes at 100 yards or so. I load them a little lighter than this for loads I shoot suppressed; down around 1,000 FPS to stay subsonic. I think my OAL is around 1.61" or a little less; I crimp them at the cannelure on the bullets I load. I know on my Marlin 1894 rifles the OAL can be an issue if you are loading long and feeding from the magazine, so I always make up a couple dummy rounds when starting with a new projectile to find out what the max reliable OAL is to not get hung up with the carrier when they are feeding from the magazine tube. I set these aside in a container for future reference and mark them as the max OAL to laod with that bullet for that rifle. Not sure if you may run into a similar problem feeding from the mag tube for a 336

If you fire your loads at 11.6, which looks to be in the charge range for a jacketed bullet in the manual you referenced, I would start with a clean bore, and inspect the bore after a couple shots to see if you are getting excessive fouling from the copper plating stripping off, and if so, any leading. I haven't had the best luck trying to push either coated lead or plated bullets too hard. But when I keep them down below 1,200 FPS or so, they work good for plinking and ringing steel.

 

[Edmon]

Could I load 44 special for this rifle? Same bullet and powder with shorter OAL? What would be a good starting load with Unique?

 

[aasbra]

Yes, you should be able to load 44 special for your rifle in addition to magnums using the same 240 grain plated bullets and a powder such as unique. The loads I outlined in my post above are more like 44 special velocity than magnums.

I don't load special cases, so not sure how much you would need to reduce the powder charge. Your reloading manual should be a good guide on how much less powder is needed when using the 44 special cases.

 

[DLS]

... They suggested a starting at 10.8 grains and max of 12.00 grains unique. That is where I came up with 11.4 grains. ...

So published data lists a starting load at 10.8, but you choose to start 0.6 gr higher at 11.4?????

There is a reason for the recommended starting load. Ignoring this can lead to all sorts of issues from minor to worse. Do so at your peril.

 

[Mikej]

So published data lists a starting load at 10.8, but you choose to start 0.6 gr higher at 11.4?????

There is a reason for the recommended starting load. Ignoring this can lead to all sorts of issues from minor to worse. Do so at your peril.

Technically that isn't a "Recommended" starting load. It's "A" load, that Hodgdon/Lyman/who ever/a trusted source, found that gave results within a safe margin for the cartridge/firearm. Some sticking of the cartridge in the chamber, could be, a sign of pressure. Certainly most modern firearms are capable of pressures over accepted published limits. I haven't always necessarily started at recommended lowest load. Different sources frequently have different minimums and maximum, tested, data. The test firearm/barrel isn't always the same either.

 

[DLS]

All true, @Mikej , but I think you kind of prove my point.

Every firearm is different, as are the test fixtures often used in ballistic testing. The "softness" / "hardness" of brass differs. The flame temperature and duration of primers differs. The "same" bullet from different manufacturing lots will exhibit different coefficient of friction traveling down the bore.

The goal of this testing and the subsequent published data is to give a range of charges that is safe across a broad spectrum of differing firearms.

The recommended starting load is designed to be safe in a worse case scenario. Primers on the hot side of normal, powder on the faster side of normal, brass on the harder side of normal, bullet on the higher side of friction, chamber / barrel on the tight side, or has become so because of fouling or carbon ring, neck tension, crimp, ... etc.

You won't know what you have until you put it all together and fire the round.

Starting in the middle of the range can and does result in severe problems. This, of course is rare ... a number of "edge of normal" tolerances need to stack on the right (wrong?) side of the spectrum but it does happen to the unwary.

Take the OPs sticky extraction. A minor issue (thankfully), but would have been avoided had a true starting load been used at the start.

 

[Mikej]

All I could say about that is, I'm probably safer starting mid range/lower than mid, and shooting in a healthy strong receiver, than I am walking down the side of the road. All I try to get through to people is that the books aren't recommending loads. The books are only giving you their results of loads they decided to print after trying numerous combinations.

 

[Spitpatch]

All I could say about that is, I'm probably safer starting mid range/lower than mid, and shooting in a healthy strong receiver, than I am walking down the side of the road. All I try to get through to people is that the books aren't recommending loads. The books are only giving you their results of loads they decided to print after trying numerous combinations.

I'm with you here, but @DLS 's premise is just as valid.

It is a rare occasion that I regard the lower end of the spectrum of book loads when loading for any sort of "performance" cartridge (and I consider the .44 Magnum in that category).

Having said that, in more "mild" or "average" cartridges, not once, but TWICE I have found accuracy best at the bottom end. Accuracy is a deal-breaker for me in these cases.

 

[Mikej]

I'm with you here, but @DLS 's premise is just as valid.

It is a rare occasion that I regard the lower end of the spectrum of book loads when loading for any sort of "performance" cartridge (and I consider the .44 Magnum in that category).

Having said that, in more "mild" or "average" cartridges, not once, but TWICE I have found accuracy best at the bottom end. Accuracy is a deal-breaker for me in these cases.

Agreed. I can't even remember where I started with my various handgun calibers but I do know none of the charges I settled on are near maximum listed. But I did load some spicy, by the book, loads for .357 Mag that I won't do again with that powder. You can get quite a spread if looking at several sources for loads too. I'm still fairly new to loading long gun. And the only "Performance" gun in the stable would be .223 I guess. I get, what I consider, decent accuracy from lower end loads in the Garand and 100+ YO Swedish Mausers.

 

[ma96782]

Marlin so lever action.
Rrrrrright......

You could play a bit with the over all length of your loaded cartridges.
BUT, But, but....don't forget to run them through (safely).....just to be sure that they will function flawlessly. You may/might feel/find......that the action starts to bind, as the cartridges get longer OR not feed reliably, as they get shorter.

Find your own happiness (COAL).

Aloha, Mark

 

[Edmon]

Thank you all for responding. I have not yet fired this rifle. I was feeling the stickiness when I was loading/unloading the rounds with initial AOL of 1.610. Since I shortened the AOL the feeding felt better. When I go out to shoot this rifle with these rounds I will chronograph as well. I did load some 44 special with 5.8 gr unique (sug starting load) with a AOL of 1.439 with a 240 gr plated bullet.