Oregon 3 Questions, Trades, Gifts, and Purchasing Elsewhere

Discussion in 'Firearm Laws & Legal' started by Ginocide, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Ginocide

    Ginocide
    Portland, Oregon
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    So with the introduction of new gun laws in OR trying to kill 2A rights by 1,000 cuts, I have some questions. I asked these of my FFL and he was pretty sure of his answers to the first question, but the rest he was not as sure about #3 and was very unsure about #2. If you've got an answer with a specific section of code to back it up, that would be great!

    Question 1: In OR a firearms trade now requires two FFL transfers right?


    This one just needs confirmation, and I found some in a discussion here but wanted to double check. If my understanding of the current laws are correct, to successfully execute a firearm trade between two individuals, Person A and Person B would both need to go to an FFL and each have a 4473 and transfer done in their name, right? One transfer for B getting A's gun, and one for A getting B's gun?

    Question 2: Now that OR requires a background check for every transfer, how does that affect ATF Form 4473 question 11a "Are you the actual Transferee?"

    According to the instructions on the form 4473 "A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party."

    Which brings us to BS 941, which states the following items:

    §2(2) (abridged)
    ...A transferor may not transfer a firearm to a transferee unless the transfer is completed
    through a gun dealer.

    §2(1)(b)
    “Transferee” means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer
    or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to receive a firearm from a transferor.

    §2(1)(c)
    “Transferor” means a person who is not a gun dealer or licensed as a manufacturer
    or importer under 18 U.S.C. 923 and who intends to deliver a firearm to a transferee.

    The problem is these two legal documents (the 4473 and BS 941 as added to the ORS) are in conflict with one another in the usage of their definitions. If Person A buys Person B a gun as a bona fide gift, then Person A is the transferee according to the 4473 even though it is Person B's personal property, ergo according to OR law, the owner of the firearm (Person B) would not need a separate transfer and 4473 because they would be (by OR law) both the transferor and the transferee. A person does not need to transfer their firearm property to themselves. OR cannot force the 4473 definition of transferee to be redefined, so we are in a conundrum.

    Summary of interpretation: If Person A bought Person B a firearm as a bonafide gift, by my interpretation, no transfer from Person A to Person B should be required as it was, at all times, Person B's bona fide personal property and OR law does not require a person to transfer a firearm to themselves.

    Question 3: As an OR resident, can I still buy a rifle or shotgun in another state and complete the transfer there?

    This one's straightforward, did 941 change my ability to buy a long gun in another state? There was a killer deal on shotguns in Vancouver, WA recently, but I was truly unsure if I could still complete that purchase and really didn't want to argue gun laws with a dunce at a Wal-Mart gun counter without specific legal citation ready to back me up.
     
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  2. ma96782

    ma96782
    Vancouver, WA
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    Say it this way.......BTW, I'm NOT a lawyer nor am I willing to re-read the OR statute (if there were changes since the last time). YES, even though I'm a WA resident, I have read the OR statute before.

    Story Time......

    Note that this is a RIFLE transaction, handgun transactions are different. So then......

    I'm a WA resident (non prohibited person, w/CCW Lic. for WA) and I wanted to buy a rifle from a guy in OR. IIRC, he lived in Eugene (or maybe it was another city near that Kommunist Kapitol of OR). Anyway, I was prepared to drive all the way to his city. Meet with him and his FFL and do the transfer. But the seller was thinking that maybe the FFL was gonna say something. Me being from WA and all that. So, I asked that the seller contact his FFL about the situation.

    The seller called me to cancel the sale.

    What The _______? So, I asked what happened?

    He said.......
    that his FFL said......
    OR Law would NOT allow me (WA resident) to buy the rifle and take it home with me that day. And added that I had to have the rifle sent to my FFL in WA, before I could actually take possession of it.

    B.S. I re-read the OR Law and quoted the section to the seller. I asked that he find another FFL and this time to make it clear to the intended FFL, that this was a rifle transaction.

    Before I left my home to meet with him, the seller called me back. He claimed, that his 2nd choice FFL also said the same thing.

    Whatever.......
    Perhaps, it was more of a case of.......the FFL didn't know %@$* or the seller just didn't want to sell. But, I'm only guessing about their motives.

    Anyway, we agreed to go back to our separate corners of the world. Go in Peace My Friend, Live Long and Prosper.

    But, this entire episode bothered me. Assuming that the seller was truthful.........that meant that the OR FFLs were flat out wrong (or not knowledgeable about their business). So, I called a FFL (pawn shop) in both OR and in WA. I gave each the scenario of the intended transaction. Seller doing the transaction in their home state.....changing OR for WA and vice versa as the case may be.

    Bottom Line (speaking of a long gun btwn OR and WA and vice versa)......
    Either way......a buyer can meet a seller at the FFLs place of business and make the transfer as long as the proper papers and BGC was done. The buyer can then take his newly purchased long gun back home to his state. Note: I prefer to meet at the seller's FFL as I'm trying to make it convenient for the seller.

    Conclusion......
    Pawn Shops are MORE knowledgeable, than their Gun Shop counterparts. LOL.....OK, Ok, ok.....maybe not always. And maybe, it's just that some gun shops don't know their own business. Because, just a few months later, I purchased a rifle in OR from an OR resident. The transfer occurred at an OR gun shop and I took home my purchase without a hitch. So, all is not lost for the gun shops of OR.

    That all being said......develop a relationship with a good/knowledgeable FFL. If in doubt......run your scenario by the FFL.

    Aloha, Mark

    PS.....for inter state handgun sales.....handguns need to be sent to the buyer's home state FFL. The FFL in the buyer's home state, is responsible for assuring that all Federal, State, and Local Laws are followed, before the buyer takes possession of the handgun.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  3. ma96782

    ma96782
    Vancouver, WA
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    As for firearms trading, sales, transfers, etc.......

    Just think of it as......
    Each person intending to take possession of a firearm must under go a BGC prior to actually taking possession.

    Course, there are certain particular circumstances under which no BGC is required. But, you'll have to look up those statutory exemptions.

    +++++

    Federal forms = use the Federal definitions.
    State forms = use the State definitions.

    Aloha, Mark
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018

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