.223 Nosler brass cracking

[Koda]

Email!

havent yet. Im still investigating if its my loading technique....

 

[Koda]

Noob question alert, sound the alarm...
This is probably obvious but as Im still learning.... would a higher neck tension cause a higher pressure?
I noticed that my trimming pilot is hard to fit into a new Nosler neck but easily slips in one of my sized necks.

 

[po18guy]

What do the primers look like? I saw that the pic was already decapped. Here is a primer on pressures. Note the increasing flatness ands cratering of the firing pin indentation as pressures rise.

Primers (Pressure Signs)

When reloading, it's important to know how primers will help you recognize pressure signs. This article gives you a good idea what to look for.

www.larrywillis.com

 

[Koda]

What do the primers look like?

no other signs of pressure, the primers were right in the middle of that picture guide (I use that bookmark too).

 

[po18guy]

no other signs of pressure, the primers were right in the middle of that picture guide (I use that bookmark too).

If you have not had other cases split like that, let Nosler know - they may already have replaced others with the same problem. Perhaps the factory annealing was off. What do you clean or tumble them with?

 

[Koda]

What do the primers look like? I saw that the pic was already decapped. Here is a primer on pressures. Note the increasing flatness ands cratering of the firing pin indentation as pressures rise.

Primers (Pressure Signs)

When reloading, it's important to know how primers will help you recognize pressure signs. This article gives you a good idea what to look for.

www.larrywillis.com

View attachment 1232845

I dug thru my notes and here is a photo of the original 5 from my very first ladder test (26.5g powder). Virgin brass. Out of the 5, 2 cracked lengthwise down the side just like the more recent sample I shared in the original post.
Notice the primers....

 

[Koda]

If you have not had other cases split like that, let Nosler know - they may already have replaced others with the same problem. Perhaps the factory annealing was off. What do you clean or tumble them with?

I probably will email them, I cant find anything in my loading that would cause this and other brass is doing fine with up to 4 times reloaded now.

Since these Nosler cases are new and already sized I never cleaned them, nice and shiny new. I do clean fired cases with a sonic cleaner, I kinda suck at that though but thats another subject....

 

[po18guy]

I probably will email them, I cant find anything in my loading that would cause this and other brass is doing fine with up to 4 times reloaded now.

Since these Nosler cases are new and already sized I never cleaned them, nice and shiny new. I do clean fired cases with a sonic cleaner, I kinda suck at that though but thats another subject....

Let us know what they say.

 

[gmerkt]

Barnes 55g TTSX

Here is what I would have thought, were this my experience. Charge of 26.5 and 26.2 of A2520 was a bit too much for the combination of components. The TTSX is a solid copper bullet. Some manufacturers have separate data for solid slugs that is reduced a bit from conventional lead/copper bullet constructions. Barnes claims the rings around their bullets reduce friction of copper solids, etc., etc. Maybe.

I looked at a Ramshot load data PDF which gave a load recommendation for A2520 using a Barnes TSX-FB. Which is a copper solid. It showed a maximum charge of 26.8 gr, which was a compressed load.

When you get up there in maximum charge territory, there could be some nuance in your set of particulars that bump max. into overcharge. Like a tight throat, case volume, etc. You did not state what the fired primer looked like, but this isn't always a completely reliable indication. There is some chatter online re. the need to back off charges when using Nosler brass, it's just the way it is.

I've got several hundred copper solid .224 stashed away, have yet to load many or fire any of them. My approach in loading them has been on the cautious side. There is a lot of energy inside that tiny case.

 

[Koda]

Here is what I would have thought, were this my experience. Charge of 26.5 and 26.2 of A2520 was a bit too much for the combination of components. The TTSX is a solid copper bullet. Some manufacturers have separate data for solid slugs that is reduced a bit from conventional lead/copper bullet constructions. Barnes claims the rings around their bullets reduce friction of copper solids, etc., etc. Maybe.

I looked at a Ramshot load data PDF which gave a load recommendation for A2520 using a Barnes TSX-FB. Which is a copper solid. It showed a maximum charge of 26.8 gr, which was a compressed load.

When you get up there in maximum charge territory, there could be some nuance in your set of particulars that bump max. into overcharge. Like a tight throat, case volume, etc. You did not state what the fired primer looked like, but this isn't always a completely reliable indication. There is some chatter online re. the need to back off charges when using Nosler brass, it's just the way it is.

I've got several hundred copper solid .224 stashed away, have yet to load many or fire any of them. My approach in loading them has been on the cautious side. There is a lot of energy inside that tiny case.

All this, is why I hesitate to email Nosler as my guess is they will point back to the projectile and no published load data. Im basically using the load data you found which is for the closest projectile match the TSX-FB, I felt fine working with this as long as I started my initial ladder at the listed min. Technically its working out for me, just not with the Nosler brass. I would think that would spark their interest though...

I think I am seeing some of those nuances even with the stronger Federal brass. I did post a pic of the primers, they are good with no signs of pressure there. Im getting good groups now and lower ES and SD and have my load recipe, playing with seating depths now to see if that improves more. One thing with my nuances with my rifle is I wanted to hit 3000fps and never did even with the Federal brass. I reached this plateau in velocity regardless of charge and since Im at at the upper end I stopped and not gonna argue over another 50fps. Im averaging 2984fps with 25.2g A2520, and Ive gone safely higher but no improvement on velocity or accuracy. Im guessing this is all to my rifles nuances and I could probably get over 3000fps if I tried other powders or primers etc. but not really worth it to me right now with these components still in high demand I was lucky to get what I have.

I wouldnt shy away from loading your Barnes monolithics but Im a hunter and so my needs are different. Barnes X has an excellent reputation as a game stopper.

There is some chatter online re. the need to back off charges when using Nosler brass, it's just the way it is.

This is what I was kinda looking for in this post. I havent found anything searching the web yet but if this is the case its kinda lame for such a reputable company.

 

[gmerkt]

Im basically using the load data you found which is for the closest projectile match the TSX-FB, I felt fine working with this as long as I started my initial ladder at the listed min. Technically its working out for me, just not with the Nosler brass.

In this case, I think the copper solid composition is more an issue than the exact profile.

I did post a pic of the primers, they are good with no signs of pressure there.

Sorry, I missed that picture. They all look pretty "normal." But with over charges, you can have flattened or pierced primers - or - those that otherwise look normal.

I wanted to hit 3000fps and never did even with the Federal brass. I reached this plateau in velocity regardless of charge and since Im at at the upper end I stopped and not gonna argue over another 50fps. Im averaging 2984fps

Best to go by results rather than stick with a specific numerical goal. Yes, neither game animals nor man-made targets are going to appreciate that kind of difference.

I already noted the compressed load in the combination used. Interior ballistics is an interesting if mysterious science. Because it's not entirely possible to determine exactly what's going on in there at the moment of ignition. I've wondered before what the effect is, if any, that may be caused by compressed loads of propellant. So what I'm thinking here is that perhaps the Nosler brass doesn't like the slightly heftier concentration of charge pressure that a compressed load might present? Hence the central rupture of the case. Just an idea.

if this is the case its kinda lame for such a reputable company.

I'm not going to knock Nosler brass, as I've never paid money for any. They entered the unfired brass business much later than the era wherein I acquired most of the stuff I've used. I am not apt to pay a premium for brass because it has a higher polish finish, which is my impression of the Nosler product. I did have a small quantity that came my way once fired but I opted not to use them. I've read that Nosler has their brass made outside their company. By more than one firm. So I don't know how special the product might be since they shop it out. Nosler bullets have been around for some time, I've bought and used some over the years. Same deal with appearance, they were fine looking, cost more, but in my limited experience didn't go downrange any better or worse than most others.

 

[Koda]

In this case, I think the copper solid composition is more an issue than the exact profile.

I think so too but have no way to validate this...

Sorry, I missed that picture. They all look pretty "normal." But with over charges, you can have flattened or pierced primers - or - those that otherwise look normal.

Im new to reloading, and one of the best decisions Ive made is to learn using 223 but for me thats in my AR. The hard part for me is determining pressure without a bolt lift, everything seems to cycle in the semi auto and so far I havent learned how to "feel" any difference in the cycling. As a result of being cautious and working up slowly I have always so far stopped short of the max load listed in any load data.
...and of course Im flirting with advanced reloading without load data listed specifically for the projectile or powder Im using... but honestly this is a result of supply shortages as this current ammo crunch -slowly- recovers. I was so lucky to find some A2520 powder about a year ago and at the moment couldnt afford it but charged it anyways and picked up 4lbs. I knew it wasnt the exact powder for the exact TTSX projectile I wanted but I took a chance that the load data for the TSX would work "close enough"... but im staying away even if just a few grains from that max 26.8c charge weight. That "plateau" Im seeing in velocity was telling me to back off...

I already noted the compressed load in the combination used. Interior ballistics is an interesting if mysterious science. Because it's not entirely possible to determine exactly what's going on in there at the moment of ignition. I've wondered before what the effect is, if any, that may be caused by compressed loads of propellant. So what I'm thinking here is that perhaps the Nosler brass doesn't like the slightly heftier concentration of charge pressure that a compressed load might present? Hence the central rupture of the case. Just an idea.

Compressed loads are interesting to me, so far Im not "feeling" anything compressing as I seat the bullet. Im not certain exactly when the charge weight starts to compress in the ladder testing. Whats interesting is (I finally found powder...) Im starting to reload for one of my deer rifles, (30-30) except I actually have (only) 1 published load data for the projectile I want (Another Barnes monolithic....) but that load data shows a compressed load at the top end. Im not certain where in between min and max load compression begins.......

Side story: Somewhere else in this forum I started a thread that resulted in someone giving me a stern caution using the 30-30 powder (Leverevolution) as being too hot so I intentionally started at the min and stopped at the middle for my first ladder test. No signs of over pressure at all... so, Im working on the next half of the ladder test.
but so far, I cant tell if Im even compressing any powder when I seat the bullets. But I will be very cautiously looking for heavier lever eject and primer, ejector marks etc. as I fire this next half of the ladder test.

I'm not going to knock Nosler brass

Note I put "if" in bold font. I just want to say publicly Im not critisizing Nosler brass here at all with this thread Im simply genuinely looking for the cause of what im experiencing. It very well could be my loading technique, it also could be simply weaker Nosler brass. I dont know yet.

 

[gmerkt]

I knew it wasnt the exact powder for the exact TTSX projectile I wanted

I've been thinking that all along, but I understand the shortages thing.

Compressed loads are interesting to me, so far Im not "feeling" anything compressing as I seat the bullet.

If the compression isn't much, you won't feel anything. But see below.

but so far, I cant tell if Im even compressing any powder when I seat the bullets.

You'll know the compression is extreme when a bullet seated over the load pushes back out. Yes, I've had that happen. Volumetric energy values of comparable charges vary from powder to power. With experience, you will learn which powders consume more space than others. From what I've read, ideally 100% case fill is the ideal for rifle but often not achievable given the cartridge and components used. Loose guide, 80% minimum fill for extruded powders, 90% min. fill for ball powders. The .223 case is small, easy to fill 100% with some powder choices.

Note I put "if" in bold font. I just want to say publicly Im not critisizing Nosler brass here at all with this thread Im simply genuinely looking for the cause of what im experiencing. It very well could be my loading technique, it also could be simply weaker Nosler brass. I dont know yet.

Duly noted. The thing about .223 brass for me is this. It's the most common brass around. Personally, I don't see any reason to pay extra money for a premium brand. It's a well developed cartridge, my experience with brass with a few exceptions is that one major brand is just about as good as another for AR purposes. I have non-AR rifles in .223, for those I reserve some special ammo for the infrequent times they see use. We're not talking Heinrich Krieghoff drilling quality here. BUT: One is a nice, now older Ruger 77 Mark II lightweight carbine, it never gets anything close to a max. load in it. If you blow a primer in an AR and burn the bolt face, nobody cries, and it's easy to replace if it bugs you. You burn the Ruger bolt, different story.

everything seems to cycle in the semi auto and so far I havent learned how to "feel" any difference in the cycling.

With AR's, I've learned to let the spring speak to me. When I was in the Army, the AR spring was ignored. Because the ammo was all the same. But as a reloader, my ammo now isn't all the same. Even though I have some standard loads. Part of the pleasure of reloading is experimentation. Rather than working with velocity barn-burners, I've experimented a lot with special purpose bullets which often have the opposite qualities. So I'm listening for "the sound" that tells me my load is hot enough to recharge the next round into battery.

Over the years, I've also kind of developed an ear for hot loads in M1 Rifles.

 

[Koda]

You'll know the compression is extreme when a bullet seated over the load pushes back out.

Ive been watching for this but havent measured it yet. Im not crimping my 223 but am my 30-30 loads,Im still working on my initial ladder test with the 30-30 so cant say yet how high or compressed my load will be. My guess is Im probably close to 90% with my 223 recipe but dont really know how to tell. I just look inside before seating and estimate where the base of the bullet will be.

The thing about .223 brass for me is this. It's the most common brass around. Personally, I don't see any reason to pay extra money for a premium brand. It's a well developed cartridge, my experience with brass with a few exceptions is that one major brand is just about as good as another for AR purposes.

Thats my take. Im only reloading for 223 to learn reloading. I can experiment at will because brass is so widely available and cheap. My only alterior motive is hunting related, I figured if Im gonna take the time im gonna make a hunting load, hence the Barnes TTSX. I probably will not hunt with my AR but like the idea of having a backup rifle and might try to hunt cougar with it when scouting in the summer.

With AR's, I've learned to let the spring speak to me.

Ive heard this advice but at this time just cant tell any difference. The only thing I can go by is the condition of the primer and spent case.

 

[Koda]

The saga continues, part 2 in another post...

gun oil causing chamber pressure

Im reading that lube, oil, and even water (ie rain etc.) can cause excessive chamber pressure? I hit pressure in my AR testing a new powder where I didnt expect to but I run my BCG "wet". How do reloaders clean their bolts, chambers, and/or bolt carrier groups if gas guns...

www.northwestfirearms.com

 

[Member 34319]

Koda, don't take this the wrong way, I thoroughly enjoy your reloading posts. You overthink everything in a way that I get to learn from it! I've been loading 223/556 for almost going on 20 years here soon and I'm always learning! You seem to find things that I've never found and by darn I appreciate you sharing them online.

In other words, keep it coming!

 

[ORhutner]

I would email Nosler and include photos. Your primers look great and the photos look identical to other posts in other forums where it was a brass issue and the manufacturer stepped up and made the problem right. Here is one for reference: https://forum.nosler.com/threads/help-with-split-cases.42494/

 

[Koda]

I would email Nosler and include photos. Your primers look great and the photos look identical to other posts in other forums where it was a brass issue and the manufacturer stepped up and made the problem right. Here is one for reference: https://forum.nosler.com/threads/help-with-split-cases.42494/

This is the second time Ive had Nosler 223 brass split like this, long story short I did contact them about this and they did not help me.

Ive tried to make these cases work, twice...
"Fool me twice".... Im sitting on about 150pcs of virgin brass im gonna toss and move on... To another brand.
And eventually gonna replacd the Nosler brass im using in my 3 other rifle/caliber handloads even though those work fine.

 

[Koda]

Koda, don't take this the wrong way, I thoroughly enjoy your reloading posts. You overthink everything in a way that I get to learn from it! I've been loading 223/556 for almost going on 20 years here soon and I'm always learning! You seem to find things that I've never found and by darn I appreciate you sharing them online.

In other words, keep it coming!

Huge compliment, i definetely overthink things... Drive my friends nuts sometimes
It might be a good fit with learning to reload though. Enjoying the process.

 

[ageingstudent]

Huge compliment, i definetely overthink things... Drive my friends nuts sometimes
It might be a good fit with learning to reload though. Enjoying the process.

That kind of split looks like hard brass to me. It's not really dangerous even if it's not ideal. If you were planning on reloading those 5 to 10 times there's nothing wrong with sending an email to Nosler with pictures. I've had Factory ammo in 22-250 and 223 split like that brand new and fresh out of the box. I even got some Factory fresh Starline brass in 357 that split from the neck damn near down to the base. About every third case I fired split. I just pitched it. But then again I have more brass than I will ever use. I have never bought 223 or 556 brass. I always just use whatever is laying on the Range. People don't pick up their brass.