Ya Know........I Guess Real Stupid Is Getting Worse

[WillametteWill]

There's no real practical difference between these two perspectives. Whether you treat every gun as a loaded gun, or insist every gun is loaded until you've checked, you treat them the same. If you say a gun is loaded until you make sure it isn't, don't you still follow basic safety rules once you've checked? It's about drilling in those safety rules so you follow them subconsciously, even under stress, when you're tired, scared, distracted, etc..

I believe that the "every gun is loaded" statement is primarily a safety instructor thing, hyperbole intended to stress the life-and-death importance of safe gun handling. I get it, and that's fine if that's how you see it. I also realize that there will be those who will judge me and call me unsafe because I disagree with their semantics, even though I follow the same safety rules every bit as strictly.

The more I think about it, it really is exactly like Schrodinger's Cat. Let's say I unload a gun and set it on a table. You walk into the room and see it. I know it's unloaded, because I unloaded it. You say it's loaded, because every gun is loaded. Unloaded and loaded at the same time.
You'll handle it carefully because you think it's loaded (Think or know? I know it's unloaded, but you think it's loaded.)
I will treat it just as carefully though, because I treat every gun as a loaded gun, even when it isn't.

Let me start by CLEARLY saying that based on your posts you are obviously someone who takes firearms safety seriously. To me, there is a slippery slope as this phrase gets watered down. For example, "Treat every gun as if it is loaded until you confirm that it is not." No, it is still loaded, meaning even though I just confirmed that it was not, I'm still not going to point it at anyone (one of those other absolutes in safety rules). I've seen big name instructors flagging entire classes after they check to make sure guns are unloaded. I've also known of some of these exact same people have ND's. Think of the DEA agent. You (well, not you you, but all of us as a collective you), say he made a mistake and pulled the mag and didn't check the chamber.

Exactly. All guns are always loaded.

I train all my students that when dry firing at home (a conundrum for many at home with the "safe direction" issue) verbally, out loud even if alone, say, "I am now beginning my dry fire practice," at the beginning of the session and, "I have now finished my dry fire," at then end...and then don't touch the gun for a period of time. I was telling this to one of my students at the range about six months ago and a couple down the line were listening. The husband came up to us after I finished and while kinda laughing said, "Do what he says," and then proceeded to tell us the story about how he shot a hole in the bottom of his car while he was dry fire practicing; specifically after he was done and then decided to do a few more and (with an unloaded gun that was no longer unloaded).

Just a little insight into my thought process.

 

[TTSX]

At the members only range I frequent, there has been a large increase in the number of idiots since the coof happened. Just yesterday, as I was leaving, a caravan of cars filled with young people was showing up, consisting of beat to heck 4x4s and a car out of fast and furious complete with loud paint job and spoiler. I'm convinced at least one mindless mag dumper was among them. Though, thanks to these people, I've gotten quite a bit of factory brass they like to leave behind allllll over the range

 

[Roadkill Bill]

Off topic a bit, just a comment about car vs. guns. We often hear how cars have to be registered, how you need training, license, and insurance to drive them, so we need to do the same with guns.

They seem to forget that you only need these those things to operate a vehicle on a public road. You can have as many cars as you want, and drive them as much as you want, with no registration, license or training, on your own property or private track.

I'm a huge proponent of safety training, but I don't know about the efficacy of legally requiring it. It's required for a drivers license, yet the roads are full of reckless jerks with no regard for the rules of the road.

You don't have a constitutional right to drive a car. Just saying.
I've met a heck of a lot more safe and sane people on the range, than jerks. I've met a lot less sane and safe people on the road.
So I've got a question for you, what do you do when people are driving like jerks on the road?

 

[WillametteWill]

So I've got a question for you, what do you do when people are driving like jerks on the road?

Same thing I do at the range, get away from them.

 

[CLT65]

Same thing I do at the range, get away from them.

Exactly!

 

[CLT65]

Let me start by CLEARLY saying that based on your posts you are obviously someone who takes firearms safety seriously. To me, there is a slippery slope as this phrase gets watered down. For example, "Treat every gun as if it is loaded until you confirm that it is not." No, it is still loaded, meaning even though I just confirmed that it was not, I'm still not going to point it at anyone (one of those other absolutes in safety rules). I've seen big name instructors flagging entire classes after they check to make sure guns are unloaded. I've also known of some of these exact same people have ND's. Think of the DEA agent. You (well, not you you, but all of us as a collective you), say he made a mistake and pulled the mag and didn't check the chamber.

Exactly. All guns are always loaded.

I train all my students that when dry firing at home (a conundrum for many at home with the "safe direction" issue) verbally, out loud even if alone, say, "I am now beginning my dry fire practice," at the beginning of the session and, "I have now finished my dry fire," at then end...and then don't touch the gun for a period of time. I was telling this to one of my students at the range about six months ago and a couple down the line were listening. The husband came up to us after I finished and while kinda laughing said, "Do what he says," and then proceeded to tell us the story about how he shot a hole in the bottom of his car while he was dry fire practicing; specifically after he was done and then decided to do a few more and (with an unloaded gun that was no longer unloaded).

Just a little insight into my thought process.

I hope I didn't come across as too argumentative. I think this is a good discussion, and mean no offense. I think our actual thought processes are much the same, just different semantics.

In your mind, that gun is loaded, even though logically and rationally you know it probably isn't. Likewise, I know in my mind that it absolutely could be loaded (no matter how unlikely), so in a way, it is loaded for me too until I see that it isn't.

I got over the "Oh, it isn't loaded" mindset a long time ago. I've heard too many tragic stories to think that way. The story I told earlier about finding a loaded rifle in my safe convinced me I'm not infallible, as well as another embarrassing close call long ago. I was letting a friend (new to guns) shoot my M1 Garand. I showed him how to load it, but before shooting we got talking about how it functioned, that lead into the history of the gun, etc.. Pretty soon I realized that we were standing there with the rifle butt on the ground, talking about the gas system, and it was still loaded!

He didn't think anything of it, and no harm done, but I beat myself up about that one for a long time. I still remember it decades later, and use it as an example of how even someone experienced with firearms can make a stupid, thoughtless safety mistake.

 

[WillametteWill]

I hope I didn't come across as too argumentative. I think this is a good discussion, and mean no offense. I think our actual thought processes are much the same, just different semantics.

In your mind, that gun is loaded, even though logically and rationally you know it probably isn't. Likewise, I know in my mind that it absolutely could be loaded (no matter how unlikely), so in a way, it is loaded for me too until I see that it isn't.

I got over the "Oh, it isn't loaded" mindset a long time ago. I've heard too many tragic stories to think that way. The story I told earlier about finding a loaded rifle in my safe convinced me I'm not infallible, as well as another embarrassing close call long ago. I was letting a friend (new to guns) shoot my M1 Garand. I showed him how to load it, but before shooting we got talking about how it functioned, that lead into the history of the gun, etc.. Pretty soon I realized that we were standing there with the rifle butt on the ground, talking about the gas system, and it was still loaded!

He didn't think anything of it, and no harm done, but I beat myself up about that one for a long time. I still remember it decades later, and use it as an example of how even someone experienced with firearms can make a stupid, thoughtless safety mistake.

We are on the same page and I as well, hope my posts have not come across as preachy or in any way negative. Intellectually I too understand an unloaded gun is not loaded. With topics like this I'm always considering little eyes (in this case, new shooters) are watching and learning from others (I still am!) I hoping they develop an absolute attitude toward gun safety. Thank you for the awesome dialog!!!

 

[pharmseller]

I shot a cat one time with an unloaded gun.

It was unreal.



P

 

[Dr Prepper]

I shot a cat one time with an unloaded gun.

It was unreal.



P

Rocko?
*swearing alert*

 

[Dr Prepper]

Here, ya all will LOVE this one!

Enjoy

Original source:

Washington State Republican Party (WSRP)

Pitch in to the Get Out The Vote effort today!

secure.anedot.com

 

[bobslp]

And sometimes you yourself can be stupid I was a victim of that and I admit it and have admitted it that everyone that walks in my bedroom. I have an norenco Hunter was just essentially a Mak 90 with a long Sporter type stock on it. I checked it the way I usually check with the safety on and pull the charging lever back after I'd taken the mag out and thought I saw that it was empty the room was dark usually you can see if there's a shell down in there and I slid my hand into the trigger guard and boom. I learned two things that day thankfulness that nobody was on the other side and humility people will say what's that hole in your wall and I tell them this is what you've got to learn to do. Don't be stupid check it all the way when I went to the kitchen I found that it had come out the counter door and my George Foreman Lean Green grilling machine threw itself in front of it to make sure no one was hurt.
And that's about all the humor I'm going to inject into this I was stupid I admit it and you can flame me until they can see the smoke all the way to Nashville I deserve it I still feel stupid about it and maybe that's really a good thing to feel. Hope this came out all right it's speech to text and I don't have my glasses on thank you for reading.
Bob

 

[Dr Prepper]

I'll admit I screwed up on this ONCE but luckily I have smart friends who check stuff when handed to them. I was in a massive rush to leave the shooting spot when I was almost practically pitch black out already and I was still at the top of the "mountain" and in a fairly low sedan having to slowly creep back down the gravel trail to get back. I threw all my gear in the car and began the three hour drive back home and stopped at my buddies *In Everett on the way back and handed him the rifle I was shooting (stupidly I should have checked it BEFORE handing it to him) I even told him its clear (like a massive idiot) because I don't drive with loaded guns in my car right? Right...??? He remarked "idk... I better check it anyway" in a sarcastic skeptical intonation. Thoroughly, mentally crapped all in my britches when I saw that cartridge come out.. That's the first time in my life I ever had that happen. I ALWAYS treat a gun like its loaded though regardless even when unloaded. And always muzzle up or down.

I've met 3 people who have ND'd and I wouldn't hang around any of them for extended periods of time. I vowed to never be one of them. I am paranoid as I'm constantly working on them.

 

[pharmseller]

You guys are making my point for me.

Glad none was hurt.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

You guys are making my point for me.

Glad none was hurt.

Yep, you either live that mindset or you don't. If you don't, there is a chance for a ND which over time just might happen. That applies to knowledgeable and experienced shooters.

But then think of all the newb gun owners out there that don't even know what the safety rules are!

 

[WillametteWill]

And sometimes you yourself can be stupid I was a victim of that and I admit it and have admitted it that everyone that walks in my bedroom. I have an norenco Hunter was just essentially a Mak 90 with a long Sporter type stock on it. I checked it the way I usually check with the safety on and pull the charging lever back after I'd taken the mag out and thought I saw that it was empty the room was dark usually you can see if there's a shell down in there and I slid my hand into the trigger guard and boom. I learned two things that day thankfulness that nobody was on the other side and humility people will say what's that hole in your wall and I tell them this is what you've got to learn to do. Don't be stupid check it all the way when I went to the kitchen I found that it had come out the counter door and my George Foreman Lean Green grilling machine threw itself in front of it to make sure no one was hurt.
And that's about all the humor I'm going to inject into this I was stupid I admit it and you can flame me until they can see the smoke all the way to Nashville I deserve it I still feel stupid about it and maybe that's really a good thing to feel. Hope this came out all right it's speech to text and I don't have my glasses on thank you for reading.
Bob

Not a chance of flaming from me. I appreciate and respect those who share stories of being human to remind us about safety. And welcome to NWF!

 

[Burt Gummer]

Oh well. I am sure the future will be just terrific with these brilliant folks at the helm.

 

[Mikej]

Oh well. I am sure the future will be just terrific with these brilliant folks at the helm.

Hope you don't mind, I stopped that pretty quick. I'm not a smart man. But I ain't no dummy! That vid could of pushed me that way though.

 

[Knifemaker]

I was out at Wolf Creek this morning wringing out some 22's on Lane 4, and a couple of gentleman (my age) asked if they could join me which I never refuse. I sat back and let them get their stuff setup, and they were up on range cold/hot, so great right? NOT!

First sign was AR dude pulling an AR off the line that was still HOT (I have no idea if the safety was even on) to work on the scope at the car and then reminded himself out loud to clear it before he walked back to the line. I let that one slide.

Final sign was they called for a cold range to change targets so I went out to pick mine up also. As I reached down to pickup the 70 yd target I heard a pistol rack and when I looked up pistol dude was setting a pistol back down on the table. Then as I pickup my second target at 50 yd, pistol dude is showing his pistol to his buddy and it's pointing right at me. NO SLIDING ON THIS ONE!!!! When I said/yelled something to them, pistol dude just showed me that he had his pistol in one hand and the mag in the other, F. When I got back to the line he looked at me and said his pistol was unloaded, but I was so pissed off that it was best for me to just shut up and leave. Totally bubblegumming oblivious.

A couple of weeks ago, again on Lane 4, a guy shows up to shoot with his 10 year old son which is wonderful. So I sat back as I normally do and proceeded to watch this guy rig up an AR pistol out of a back pack then sling it over his back in such a way that the muzzle was pointing at is kids head while he starts loading mags. Again F. That dude got learned, nicely in front of his son of course, but he had no clue either since he said there was no mag in it.

I am to the point where I am going to go back to my one man spot and be done with it. Plus I can get an honest 100 yards there anyway.

PS: Sorry, but if a mod wants to delete the "F", that's fine, but it's really how I feel on this subject and bubblegum just does not cut it. I did use bubblegum once though .

Crazy these people never heard the there all loaded and do not point , watch your muzzle at all times .

 

[washagonian]

I followed this thread for awhile when its first started in August.

Recently I ran across an old training video on YouTube of Col. Jeff Cooper and the 4 rules of firearm safety.

He talks about Rule 1 and what he has to say is totally relevant to this discussion. It's not that he says anything new - but he puts a "perspective" on this safety rule that is "gold".

Here's the link to the vid - watch from 0:49 to 2:34. Gotta love the Colonel.

(Jerry Miculek has a couple of vids where he does a similar thing - reiterates the well-known safety rules - but puts "perspective" on them from his decades of experience - and that perspective is invaluable. If I can find one of them again, I'll post the link.)

 

[tac]

I followed this thread for awhile when its first started in August.

Recently I ran across an old training video on YouTube of Col. Jeff Cooper and the 4 rules of firearm safety.

He talks about Rule 1 and what he has to say is totally relevant to this discussion. It's not that he says anything new - but he puts a "perspective" on this safety rule that is "gold".

Here's the link to the vid - watch from 0:49 to 2:34. Gotta love the Colonel.

(Jerry Miculek has a couple of vids where he does a similar thing - reiterates the well-known safety rules - but puts "perspective" on them from his decades of experience - and that perspective is invaluable. If I can find one of them again, I'll post the link.)

I really miss that man. What he would think of the 'Woke' brigade would be unprintable on a family-readership forum like ours.