Why The Lack Of Concern/Info For BP or Equivalent Load Pressure Levels?

[arakboss]

When it comes to anything smokeless related, there are great concerns and info available for pressures of load combinations. That is logical because different firearms and cases are capable of withstanding different pressure levels.

Wouldn't the same be the case with BP guns? Why is pressure data so limited with BP loading info?

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[Andy54Hawken]

I would guess that it is because unlike smokeless powder being compressed into a cartridge ...
Back powder being loaded "loose" in a barrel...has less pressure.
Also black powder and its slower burn rate may have something to do with it.
Andy

 

[BigGame]

I would guess that it is because unlike smokeless powder being compressed into a cartridge ...
Back powder being loaded "loose" in a barrel...has less pressure.
Also black powder and its slower burn rate may have something to do with it.
Andy

I agree with this. I've tested my BP rifle over a chronograph where I reached a point that velocity would not go up further - the excess powder was simply blowing out the end of the muzzle. I was still far below what the manufacturer listed as a maximum charge for the rifle, so went up some distance confirming this effect.

Keep in mind that the engraving pressure of pushing a BP bullet through the barrel (which can be done by hand) is much less than that if a centerfire cartridge. You can't manually push a bullet through your 30.06.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Good point above about "pushing a bullet"...
With a round ball rifle...you want a snug but not too tight patch and ball combination.
A proper sized round ball for a rifle will roll down the barrel without a patch.

Even with Minie Ball / Maxi ball conical bullets...one can push those up or down the bore manually as needed...
So...less pressure.

I can't speak for modern in-lines with copper jacketed bullets..or sabot bullets.
Since I ain't shot them enough...and do my dammedest not to...
Andy

 

[arakboss]

I would guess that it is because unlike smokeless powder being compressed into a cartridge ...
Back powder being loaded "loose" in a barrel...has less pressure.
Also black powder and its slower burn rate may have something to do with it.
Andy

I understand that pressures overall are lower with BP & Equivalents. With BP firearms you could be front stuffing directly into barrel, loading a cartridge or loading a revolver cylinder. The range of BP firearms is very wide from very old muskets to the latest high pressure inlines. It seems like knowing pressure limitations and pressures of various load combinations might be helpful.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Honestly the only time I worry about black powder pressures....
Is when I am shooting one of my original / antique muzzle loaders.
Then I use a lighter loading...may not actually be needed ....however....
When dealing with 150 + year old iron , metal fatigue , stock wear and shrinkage , old pits , etc....
It seems best to do so.
Andy

 

[Andy54Hawken]

The range of BP firearms is very wide from very old muskets to the latest high pressure inlines

Really ? ....I wouldn't have known....
Andy

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[arakboss]

I am looking at picking up one these style of revolvers made by Pietta (44cal).




Any idea what the maximum pressure is that this style of revolver will handle?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I am looking at picking up one these style of revolvers made by Pietta (44cal).

View attachment 1871492


Any idea what the maximum pressure is that this style of revolver will handle?

I do not know...nor really care to use maximum pressure loads for any firearm

For a Colt Dragoon....I use what Col. Sam Colt suggested....38-40 grains of 2F or 3F and a .454 round ball.
Andy

 

[BigGame]

Honestly the only time I worry about black powder pressures....
Is when I am shooting one of my original / antique muzzle loaders.
Then I use a lighter loading...may not actually be needed ....however....
When dealing with 150 + year old iron , metal fatigue , stock wear and shrinkage , old pits , etc....
It seems best to do so.
Andy

Agree again. I think the only time to be concerned about pressure with a BP firearm is based on the delicacy of the arm itself. I think it would be difficult to get into pressure problems with a modern BP firearm, maybe impossible.

I'll also note that of greater concern is accuracy, and I didn't find best accuracy at top velocity. I backed down until I did and found myself squarely within the range recommended by manufacturers. So unlike centerfire cartridges, I think you can consider the range of guidance provided to be where the bullet will shoot best (and it's also perfectly safe).

 

[BigGame]

I am looking at picking up one these style of revolvers made by Pietta (44cal).

View attachment 1871492


Any idea what the maximum pressure is that this style of revolver will handle?

See if there's a max charge provided in the owner's Manuel, if new production.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

@arakboss
If you want some good information about muzzle loading firearms , pressures and load data...
I'd suggest buying a copy of :
Lyman Black Powder Handbook.

I think it is out of print...and while some of the information is dated , in regards to firearm manufacturers ....the book is well worth seeking out and reading.
Andy

 

[Mark W.]

It has been my experience with BP revolvers that you can get enough powder into the cylinders to damage the firearm. With muzzle loaders you soon get to the point that your just blowing powder out the muzzle and making a huge flash when it hits Oxygen. As to a BP cartridge with those the idea is to put enough powder or powder and filler so you end up with a compressed load. Again almost impossible to over load one.

YMMV

 

[P7M13]

I am looking at picking up one these style of revolvers made by Pietta (44cal).

I was going to ask what hamster wheel you were running on today, but now I see the reason for your post.
I don't have Lyman's Black Powder Handbook that Andy suggested, but two books in my library stand out, George Nonte's Black Powder Guide, and Sam Fadala's Black Powder Loading Manual. The latter has ~ 9 pages on BP pressure. I'd photocopy them but it would mean breaking the spine of the book, and I don't want to do that.
If you look around at used book stores (where I found all mine), or Thriftbooks.com, you can find these valuable information resources.
Suffice it to say, you can indeed blow up a BP gun using BP. Too thick of a patch, double loading, sloppy loading technique, too much powder for the load being pushed, wrong powder grain type, etc.
The other highly variable aspect to this equation is the grain size of the ingredients used, and the source of the charcoal used to make the carbon. I have read many DIY BP makers who swear by charcoal generated using willow tree wood.
Lastly, BP is affected by mixture method, binder, and moisture content. This is discussed in Snelling's Analysis of Black Powder and Dynamite. Any of these will affect the energy of the reaction.
If you did around on the internet, you'll also find discussion on using smokeless powders like H870 or US869, etc in place of BP.

Edit to add: Be safe -- don't load for power or speed. Get to know your revolver first. I have the Pietta 1860 .44 Army revolver and there's a great deal more to loading revolvers than BP rifles. Look up U tube videos on it, and also refer to the the Stickys in the BP discussion forum on loading.
Also, on any used BP gun, I'd strongly caution you to tear it apart and examine it very closely, clean it, then put it back together. Mine was supposedly shot once, but two chambers in the cylinder were not cleaned nicely and I pulled a bunch crud like cosmoline out of two, and evidence of rust in all of them, plus had to clean all the nipples.
Here's a table I started with:

 

[Idaho44]

As indicated the books mentioned are a good start. The Lyman's Black Powder Handbook does have load data, muzzle velocity etc. and pressure data.
Other resources would include several BP/Muzzleloader web sites. The DGW catalog has info and last but not least, manufacture's web sites.

 

[arakboss]

One idea I had for a 410 load was a full 2.5" brass shell worth of Pyrodex RS under a full 2.5" brass shell worth of shot. I would load the powder in the case and insert an over powder wad to hold it in. After inserting the shell in the shotgun, I would load the shot in from muzzle and top it off with over shot wad. Any idea on what type of pressure that might make?

 

[Xaevian]

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Do Not Use Smokeless Powder In Firearms Designed For Black Powder.

I don't give a sh!t what some dumbazz does on You Tube....He is an idiot...and dangerous.
It ain't a good or healthy idea for you and your firearm.
Andy

 

[Certaindeaf]

I knew where this was going.
The lack of concern/info for BP loads is because it isn't necessary.. as anyone would find out or know by doing the most rudimentary of research.

 

[Kruel J]

One idea I had for a 410 load was a full 2.5" brass shell worth of Pyrodex RS under a full 2.5" brass shell worth of shot. I would load the powder in the case and insert an over powder wad to hold it in. After inserting the shell in the shotgun, I would load the shot in from muzzle and top it off with over shot wad. Any idea on what type of pressure that might make?

How would anyone know or even have the means to measure? Sometimes the voices in your head are best left ignored.