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Violent crime down, gun sales up

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Dave Workman, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Western Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Impossible, you say?
    You must be a member of WA CeaseFire, then...because.....

    :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

    Proof positive: Gun sales up, violent crime down…again!

    For the fourth consecutive year, according to figures released this week by the FBI, the estimated number of violent crimes declined in 2010, while – according to other data from the National Instant Check System and National Shooting Sports Foundation – gun sales have been climbing.

    Proof positive: Gun sales up, violent crime down...again! - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com
     
  2. jimwsea

    jimwsea Vancouver, Washington state Active Member

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    Well well, are we becoming better armed AND more polite?
     
  3. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I think you are creating a false dichotomy here. There is no proven link between the two occurrences and there are tones of factors that have contributed to lower crime rates. One could just as easily say "Social welfare up, violent crime down."
     
  4. rufus

    rufus State of Jefferson Well-Known Member

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    Suggested reading: More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws
     
  5. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    That's great, and I am a very big supporter of an armed society, but drawing false conclusions that are easily torn apart by antis is not a good idea. It makes us look dishonest. A person with an agenda can make statistics say anything. Especially when they are willing to ignore certain aspects of the equation. It is like when people like to say Sweden has low crime because people own rifles when in fact Sweden attributes it's low crime rate to both it's legal system, it's strong social programs, and the wide involvement of it's citizens in their communities..
     
  6. Teufel_Hunden

    Teufel_Hunden Albany, Oregon Active Member

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    Just because you say its a false conclusion doesn't make it so. Possibly by your thinking all statistics should be ignored?

    I swear PP......sometime I wonder who's side you are on?

    Facts are facts.....gun sales are up.....crime is down!



    T_H
     
  7. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    Actually, since the claim is being made that they are related the burden of proof falls on the person who puts forward the claim. In other words, just because he says it is true does not make it true.

    McDonald's sold more cheeseburgers than ever last year. The percentage of people that died from their first heart attack was down. therefore McDonald's cheeseburgers help people survive heart attacks. That is the logic you are supporting here.

    As for which side I am on, I am on the side that makes rational supportable arguments that cannot be used as easy fodder for the opposition. I am not on the side that is willing to manipulate facts to support my agenda. Pretending guns sales being up is the primary reason for declining crime rates (especially when crime has been declining for decades even when guns sales are not rising) is absurd and not well thought out.
     
  8. civilian75

    civilian75 Hillsboro, OR Well-Known Member

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    PP is just being honest to the truth, IMHO. As much as I'd like this to be true, there is a chance the trends are not as directly linked as we wished. For instance, not too long ago, if a crook wanted someone else's money, he had to rob a victim or hold up a bank. Some of the criminals (the smarter ones, that is) have turned to cyber-crime. It is physically safer.

    I admit that even these statements are debatable, being no expert, I can't prove the point with data. Bottom line, it is difficult to effectively and honestly establish a direct correlation.
     
  9. ta2er

    ta2er Oregon Member

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    70% of all statistics are made up anyhow.
     
    iusmc2002 and (deleted member) like this.
  10. Teufel_Hunden

    Teufel_Hunden Albany, Oregon Active Member

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    Actually you can't PROVE that your McDonalds theory isn't true.

    You just like the debate, you've proven it over and over!

    Have fun!

    T_H
     
  11. NuthinFancy

    NuthinFancy Seattle Area Active Member

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    PP is correct. *** hoc ergo propter hoc? Puh-lease.

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    Did you just spit? :)

    Plus, you have to also take into account these numbers are crime statistics from last year. Didn't almost all of the major gun manufacturers report a drastic drop in sales last year. I know the S&W stockholders report stated earnings fell by nearly 50% due to decreasing sales. I think Ruger and SIG made similar claims.
     
  13. NuthinFancy

    NuthinFancy Seattle Area Active Member

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    Oops. Looks like the Latin word for 'with' is also a bubblegum word :laugh:

    I am a firm believer in what Heinlein said: "an armed society is a polite society" though.
     
    nubus and (deleted member) like this.
  14. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I kind of do and kind of don't. I think an armed society would stop certain crimes, but bad guys will always be bad guys and they would just have to become more ruthless. Look at inner city gangs. They are about as close as you get to an armed society. They are not particularly polite.
     
  15. 22many

    22many PNW Well-Known Member

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    I don't care who is right or wrong. As long as it makes gun owners look better and help our cause then that's good enough for me. More than likely, good enough for alot others also.....
     
  16. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    If you build the foundation of your cause on questionable ground you can't be surprised later when the whole thing falls down around you.
     
  17. rufus

    rufus State of Jefferson Well-Known Member

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    Kinda like man-made global warming?
     
  18. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    If you want to think so...but that is another case of denying facts in favor of opinion.
     
  19. fuhr52

    fuhr52 Lane County. Oregon Well-Known Member

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    So who do we believe. The anti gun crowd isn't going to say anything that doesn't push their agenda and the pro gun crowd is doing the same. Both sides claim to have the facts. One fact we do know is Obama is one **** of a gun salesman.
     
  20. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    There is only one guy that has rivaled and perhaps surpassed Obama when it comes to being good for gun sales...and that was Bill Clinton. Even he admitted he was the best thing to happen to small guns shops in decades.