training resource recommendations?

tionico · Apr 18, 2009

Anyone have any solid suggestions for training resources in the books or video department for a guy with little to no experience with a handgun, wanting to learn good habits and tactics from the start, but can't seem to connect with any of the overcrowded (but obviously very good and necessary) hands on training classes? Washington do not require any class for the CPL, so its not a requisite to getting the permit. But I really want to learn the right things from the start, rather than figure it out (likely a ways short of the mark) on my own. At least I could begin to study and learn now rather than having to wait months for space in a class. What, if any, resources have any here found really helpful and accurate?

SheepDog223 · Apr 26, 2009

I would suggest "House Clearing and Cornering Tactics and Techniques" with Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn. Also Youtube Nuttinfancy and watch all of his videos you can find, but remember... Nothing is a replacement for practice under stress. Start slow and stay safe. It will all fall into place in short time.

Redrum · Apr 28, 2009

"Defensive Handgunning" by John Farnum

"In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob

are both exellent books..the internet is also an exellent resource

for some really good training... I'd go and play some paintball..with the obvious exception of the differences in "cover vs. concealment" between paintballs and lead bullets...everything else tactic wise and stress wise is very applicable..

cost wise it cant be beat..its a heck of a lot fun..and all the skills directly cross over to firearms

moving and shooting

shooting at moving targets

reloading and shooting under stress

shooting while being shot at

tactics..good and bad..what works and what doesnt

the motor mechanics of a paintball and a firearm are different..but that is just muscle memory and can be easily learned...the use of tactics and the "combat" stress is what you reallly need to figure out and develope..anyone can be taught how to reload a pistol..but doing it under fire as 3 guys are trying to flank you is a whole different animal..

you also get instant feeback on what works and what doesnt and when you make a mistake you get to learn from it and change it the next "game".

OFADAN · Apr 28, 2009

My suggestion although it will probably be overruled is ....first you crawl, then walk, then run and eventually gallop into your training...in other words if you have no prior training at all, then I'd save the clearing rooms and moving 'n shooting for later on and start with the fundamentals. It is the fundamentals that make the difference.

Besides, if your intention is to go to classes anyway, then I'd suggest you get enrolled as soon as possible. Once you start going then these classes will get you started on the right foot and begin to "teach you how to practice and what to practice - correctly." Then if you want to augment your training with books and videos it will reinforce what you've learned...or challenge what you've learned which you'll have to make a judgement call on.

As an experiment...I've been trying for exactly one year now to learn how to play the harmonica from reading books and watching free videos on You Tube...although I've been practicing a lot and reading/watching a number of references my score so far..."I still stink" at playing or attempting to play. Next step...to seek out a competent instructor! Some folks can learn by books and videos...but what I find is they are best reserved for "post instructional" reinforcement. But what the heck do I know?

Redrum · Apr 29, 2009

both the books I listed are written for a person who has just made the choice to carry a firearm and is new to the whole thing.

I suggested trying out paintball because on the surface it appears to be just a game..but every rule (basic and advanced) of firearm safety and use applies directly in paintball...however if you violate those rules no one dies and you get instant feedback both good and bad..

I am not recommending playing paintball in lue of taking any actual training classes...just as supplement and its something you could do with little or no waiting.

If you are looking for simunition type training on a budget, that incorporates everything about carrying a firearm and gunfighting...then paintball is the closest thing going

OFADAN....

I've been doing a similar thing with the Irish tin whistle and I still suck at it :s0155:

tionico · Apr 29, 2009

Hey, you guys are great... this sort of thing is exactly what I was looking for in way of feedback.

I'd have never thought of paintball.. never gone but know a few who do. Maybe I should dig out the old coveralls and chase the teenagers through the woods.... some friends have large rural properties, heavily treed, slopes, blackberry thickets big enough to hide a house.... and two rowdy and rambunctions teenagers. One of their favorite "sports" is gravelboarding.... one hops on the quad, the other on a chunk of plywood. a rope connects them, handheld by the boardrider. The goal is for the driver to dump the rider.... then they trade. Crazy, these lot are. They've cousins of similar levels of insantiy right next door.... and the four of them and three gallons of gas can spend a whole afternoon..... and they ALL love paintball.

Books are great for theory, and I appreciate the references. Mr. Ayoob seems to be a well known authority on the matter.... I've seen his courses... rather dear, but good, from what I can decipher. Videos help a little, as I am a very "visual" learner. Tactile as well.. I want MY hands on the stuff.

Both of you guys and your attempts to learn music crack me up... years ago (after playing guitar self-taught and with friends for years, I took a wild hare and decided to learn fiddle. After many years of struggling, chasing the neighbourhood cats away, shoulder problems and an overcrowded schedule put it down, for the most part. But fiddle is one instrument if ou don't stay with it it goes away quickly, and can't be brought back very soon..... so I got a mandolin (all the notes are in the same places, but its got frets and is picked, where the fiddle has no frets... YOU decide where the note is... and is bowed.... ALL the tone quality comes from bowing, the easiest to lose) and manage to stay with that, sort of. Never tried the harpoon, but I've got a quiver of tinwhistles, mostly lying about unplayed....

My advice to learn any instrument, particularly if you're after a give style (Irish pennywhistle, you say....) is LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN. Recordings, find every live performance where someone is playing that instrument, or even in that style. Until you get the "feel" of your chosen style (of course, with Irish there are somewhere round a dozen regional "dialects" of music style) you will never play it yourself. Learning where all the notes are is only the basics of it. Give a classical violinist the musical score for a rollicking Irish jig and have a listen. Well, you can recognise the tune and all, but its dead dead DEADDDD! He lacks the "soul" of the style. Now, turn loose a gnarly old red-nosed Mick who can' even read music, name him the same tune and off he goes.... and HE's got it.

And, thinking about it all, I am convinced it is the same with firearms. One can learn by rote all the "right moves", but lack the life-saving "style" of it all, that innate sense of where to go/what to do next. And how to "operate the tool" effecitvely in a variety of situations. BEFORE those situations arrive to test you. Like always, it ain't the "tool" in one's hands. Its whose hands it is in. Some stories I know could fit here.... but space constrains me.

Great advice, guys, and I appreciate your taking the time to pass it along.

Dan, part of the problem I have in signing up for a class that is unavailable for a few months is this: my life at present is NOT as predictable and smooth as most... and at this point I'm not sure where I'll be or whether I could be at a certain place four months out..... next month, yes. Two months, well, probably. Much beyond that, well its tossing a ball in the air blindfolded..... where will that sucker come down???

Redrum · Apr 29, 2009

My mother played the mandolin for years when I was a kid (love child of the 60s)..I got the musicans ear....it just gets lost somewhere before my fingers

one thing I truely believe about firearms training is quality vrs quantity..25 rounds shot correctly every other week is much better than 500 shot in a weekend...if you get my drift

there are alot of "non traditional" things you can do to that will help with shooting/combat skills.

MMO's massive online multiplayer computer games for example..games like "call of duty 4" let you practice tactics, movement and communication with "real live people"..and you can do it in your underwear from your livingroom. :s0155:

OFADAN · Apr 29, 2009

Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread with my musical experimentation...I just used it as an analogy of how people learn...anyway, you can certainly find a competent instructor in the discipline you're desire and have a private tutorial that fits your time table.

That is what I'm about to do with my music...I'm done with the self-help.

VWTim · Apr 30, 2009

Redrum said:
MMO's massive online multiplayer computer games for example..games like "call of duty 4" let you practice tactics, movement and communication with "real live people"..and you can do it in your underwear from your livingroom.

While games such as COD4 are great entertainment, that is all they are. Tactics and communication when in a conflict/war environment is MUCH different than when it's midnight and someone just broke down your door. Or you're walking out of the grocery store and a mugger pulls a gun on you.

tionico · Apr 30, 2009

VWTim, that sounds about right.... but no worries. I don't do computer games. I have watched a few folks playing Temple of Boom and Invasion of the Gun Geeks, and, while amusing, I see little corelation between pixels on a controlled environment screen and live cells in a rough situation. The other thing I've seen is that most of the games don't seem realistic as far as what the opposition do. Far too predicatble, which is expected when they "operate" according to a scripted scenario. Let's see, now, right round THIS corner will be lurking the Giant Manblaster, take HIM out and I can cruise down to the second tree where there will be another...... so it becomes a matter of the "player" learning the parameters of the gamer's script. Sort of like schoolkids studying to ace the WASL but not really learning anything. That's fine as far as it goes, trouble is the joggermugger and the carjacker and the doorkicker never bothered to read the script..... prolly can't read anyway.

Redrum · Apr 30, 2009

its all learning to multi-task under stress...as your stress level goes up your fine motor skills decrease...computer games require you to use your fine motor skills..in order to do that and succeed you have to learn to control your adrenaline and your stress level, while doing a bunch of things at once, correctly, as fast as you can.

when you play online, your not playing against a computer. your playing against a bunch (sometimes 100 depending on the game) of live people (prob in their underwear in their livingrooms) but living non the less. so there is no script. people are free to do there own thing.

The US Militairy has invested millions and millions of dollars into programs where soldiers practice tactics and communication in front of computer screens "playing" games just like COD4..there are whole bases dedicated to it, where tankers and armored units sit in boxes that look like the inside of a turret and stare at computer screens fighting each other over the internet....you can do something similar like that for the price of an Xbox or you can put your head in the sand and say " While games such as COD4 are great entertainment, that is all they are"

Am I saying that if you sit in a room all day playing a computer game that the SAS will beat down your door to have you sign up...no I am not

What Im saying is that it has training value and real life application..just like paintball and a million other things if you choose to look.

VWTim · Apr 30, 2009

Redrum said:
its all learning to multi-task under stress...as your stress level goes up your fine motor skills decrease...computer games require you to use your fine motor skills..in order to do that and succeed you have to learn to control your adrenaline and your stress level, while doing a bunch of things at once, correctly, as fast as you can.

when you play online, your not playing against a computer. your playing against a bunch (sometimes 100 depending on the game) of live people (prob in their underwear in their livingrooms) but living non the less. so there is no script. people are free to do there own thing.

The US Militairy has invested millions and millions of dollars into programs where soldiers practice tactics and communication in front of computer screens "playing" games just like COD4..there are whole bases dedicated to it, where tankers and armored units sit in boxes that look like the inside of a turret and stare at computer screens fighting each other over the internet....you can do something similar like that for the price of an Xbox or you can put your head in the sand and say " While games such as COD4 are great entertainment, that is all they are"

Am I saying that if you sit in a room all day playing a computer game that the SAS will beat down your door to have you sign up...no I am not

What Im saying is that it has training value and real life application..just like paintball and a million other things if you choose to look.

It still differentiates from the true "reason" for our training. As private citizens we aren't training to invade a country in CQB skills. I am training to go about my day, go to work, grab coffee, eat lunch, hit the supermarket and make it home to my loved ones safely. I am not going out and "gearing up" for combat everyday.

Sure you can practice situational awareness and multi-tasking from an artificial environment, but it doesn't help you to build any muscle memory skills, which are needed in a fight or flight situation.

superdude · May 9, 2009

I have recently started playing airsoft. Now forget you pre conceived ideas of airsoft, i'm not talking about the guns at big 5. They have airsoft guns that look IDENTICAL to the real steel. They have gas blow back pistols that cycle when you fire them. Great thing is you can can train without the high cost of ammo and if you make a mistake you wont blow your foot off. Airsoft bbs cost about $8 for 2000 rnds. You can also play with other people in arenas sort of like paintball, it helps you try to develop your movement, tactics and mindset. I have introduced about 5 different guys all over the age of 30 to it and they had a blast. Look into it, in portland there are a couple of arenas to play at. If you go to s-4 tactical a couple of the owners are ex military and are firearms owners/enthusaists. They also offer concealed weapon permit classes plus will be offering tactical training with airsoft replicas. I have no association with s-4, they just have a great store and range plus they focus more on airsoft as training than just a game.

VWTim · May 9, 2009

Redrum said:
The OP asked for some training suggestions/resouces he could do while he was waiting to take some formal classes..Why dont you post a few of those

Sure, for marksmanship this is what I find helps the best. It's called by many names, I call it a trigger reset drill.

Remember that you are supposed to see the front sight of your handgun, and the target and rear sight should fuzz out.

Put your gun on target, slowly press the trigger until it goes bang. Then, HOLD the trigger back until you gain a 2nd sight picture, at that point slowly reset the trigger until it clicks. You can now fire again.

Each shot has (2) sight pictures, 3 shots have (4), etc. I do this at the beginning and end of each range session I do and it always brings my groups in and beings my confidence in my skills up.