The fragile, unreliable and all around girly AR15

[The Heretic]

I wonder what would happen to say an average car if you abused it like that?

If I fell on it in the mud?

It might be dented, but it would still run.

More to the point, what would happen if you abused an AK like that?

Probably nothing.

To each their own. I have a preference for an AK, but the AR is much better ergonomically, it can be easily modified to be a precision rifle, and you can swap out the uppers to morph it into a number of different rifles shooting a number of different cartridges.

 

[LaserMan]

I carried an M16 (probably the same one) between 1981 and 1985 and can't tell you how many thousands of rounds I put through it - don't remember malfunctions being an issue. That was a few years ago so my memory may not be too accurate, but I doubt I had more than a handful of malfunctions in that 4 year period. I jumped with mine about 90 times into the sand/dirt covered dz's of Fort Bragg, and dragged it through the sand for a month at Ft. Irwin when we jumped there in '81 and again in Florida for 6 weeks - so it was not exactly babied! I would carry an M-16 anywhere, anytime, and be confident it would go bang when necessary.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

If I fell on it in the mud?

It might be dented, but it would still run.

More to the point, what would happen if you abused an AK like that?

Probably nothing.

To each their own. I have a preference for an AK, but the AR is much better ergonomically, it can be easily modified to be a precision rifle, and you can swap out the uppers to morph it into a number of different rifles shooting a number of different cartridges.

I have several of each. They each have weaknesses, that is the nature of the beast

 

[Ironbar]

I don't care one way or the other. I chose the AK platform because the 7.26x39 is a harder hitting round.

 

[Riot]

So, lots of people hopping on here to rant and rave about the ARs...nobody is going to throw out the flaws?

First of all, every gun malfunctions...whether it's because it wasn't maintenenced correctly, you were too harsh with it, you used faulty gear with it (mags, ammo) or it was put together with poor parts. Nevertheless, sometimes these firearms have inherient flaws to it's platform that make the gun less reliable and the AR has these flaws...

For starters, lets talk about a unique issue called a "Bolt Override"


This happens when a bullet gets logged between the bolt face and the upper receiver (as shown above). The chances of getting this bad boy out without dissasembling the rifle is pretty slim and the bullet with usually sieze up the gun as the cassing gets squeezed between those locking lugs on the bolt.

Oh, and lets mention that free-floating firing pin in the bolt carrier assembly! I have personally seen two incidents where a round went off- one where a soldier shot another soldier because the butt of the rifle was hit on the back of a tailgate, discharging the rifle. Note that every time you chamber a round, the firing pin lightly dents the primer of the chambered bullet.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/store_slamfire.html

Then you have that gas tube!

So basically what happens is if too much foriegn material gets in the gas tube, it can fail...even blow up in this case.

What I've noticed about the AR is that you need to oil it for it to function correctly. But it you oil it, it attracts dust that can cake inside the internal parts and it could make the rifle malfunction. So you have a catch-22 when deploying (especially to desert ares) as "to oil or not to oil". They do make some lubricants that are extremely dry (to not attract the dirt) and some firing pins that have springs to avoid slam fires...but these are standard flaws in stadard ARs that are often overlooked because it's the gun the military uses.

This is a crap rifle when compared to the AK. The AR's modularity does not make up for its flaws in reliability.

 

[Riot]

Just to add (something I think is funny)

When Springfield noticed that some of it's guns can slam fire (if the trigger is depressed on some of the XD-S series while the slide is locked to the rear and a round is chambered), it conducted a recall and fixed the issue.

Colt did trim down some of their firing pins, but the military's solution is to "keep the rifle pointed in a SAFE direction at all times"

http://www.guns.com/2013/08/28/breaking-springfield-armory-issues-safety-recall-xds-pistols/

Just FYI.

 

[Just Jim]

Just opinion by watching many guns run at the gun club but machinery is just that, a machine. Alot of things go into making a machine run well. First it has to be well built by people who know how and care about their product. Then you have to inspect and lubricate the machine for the enviroment it will be running in. Plus you have to feed it good fuel it can run on.

Reliability is not an accident, it's built in but you have to have a good operator to get the most out of it. Poor operators will break the machine by not knowing how to operate it or take care of it. All machinery is the same.

 

[IronMonster]

Yeah, You either love the AR or hate it. There seems to be no middle ground. I dont feel that way about the AK. I own a couple, I dont particularity like them but I certainly dont hate them. In certain situations I think they have advantages, but to say the AR is crap and the AK is gold I simply dont buy. I have had a over bolt malfunction, Its quite simple to clear and you do not need to tear down the rifle. You simply take an empty and use it to push the bolt back into the buffer tube and the round falls out. I have had a AK that would fire the empties back inside the receiver occasionally. It would extract but then rather than throw the empty free it would rat hole it inside the gun. Of course it did not work well with a case rattling around in there.

The gas tube "issue" is not so much if your aware of it. If the gun has been under water you need to cycle the action to break the seal at the gas tube to let some of the water drain. It is not ideal but only if you are aware of it you will never have a failure like they show in the video. I would not own one of those HK rifles. Yeah, so its got a piston and can shoot out of water. It also cost 4 times what a M4 clone does, It also weighs almost twice what a M4 does, the for end is half again larger than a slim Keymod rail. The sights suck and you have to carry a tool to adjust the rear. It will only likes HK mags that cost $80 each and it is full of parts that dont work in any other AR. When they first where available to civilians I wanted one in the worst way and was set to buy one until I actually was able to hold one. The thing is a tank, But if I wanted a tank I would carry a HK91

As far as pin fires, I have owned AR's for over 20 years and fired tens of thousands of rounds through them and never had one fire except when I pulled the trigger. I have dropped them, carried them in my truck and even taken big game with them. I have never heard of one firing accidentally since they first discovered the problem and reduced the weight of the firing pin to counter act it (40 years ago)

The AK is not without faults. As a basic platform the sights suck, the geometry of it makes it next to impossible to have quick follow up shots because it rises excessively, there is no good place to mount optics. Its common to find them that the mags are either so sloppy they crash around in the mag well or so tight you have to take two hands to make a change. It takes two hands to work the mag latch and insert a mag. You cant reach the safety while on on target. The claim to fame is the tolerances are so loose that even though they are not very accurate they always work. They are the VW bug of firearms. In my opinion a AK to AR comparisons makes as much sense as a 55 VW bug comparison to a 55 chevy Bel air. The Bug might be a more practical, economical and reliable car, I'll still pick the Bel air every time.

 

[Just Jim]

Overbolt, just guessing is magazine related. I bet the feed lips are bent out allowing a round to jump up into the action too early. Bolt drag will bring the next round forward just a little so not all the round will rise prematurely. When the bolt goes back on firing the one round will spring up for a jam.

Most guys don't take care of their equipment, it's the way society is now.

 

[Riot]

Yeah, You either love the AR or hate it. There seems to be no middle ground. I dont feel that way about the AK. I own a couple, I dont particularity like them but I certainly dont hate them. In certain situations I think they have advantages, but to say the AR is crap and the AK is gold I simply dont buy. I have had a over bolt malfunction, Its quite simple to clear and you do not need to tear down the rifle. You simply take an empty and use it to push the bolt back into the buffer tube and the round falls out. I have had a AK that would fire the empties back inside the receiver occasionally. It would extract but then rather than throw the empty free it would rat hole it inside the gun. Of course it did not work well with a case rattling around in there.

The gas tube "issue" is not so much if your aware of it. If the gun has been under water you need to cycle the action to break the seal at the gas tube to let some of the water drain. It is not ideal but only if you are aware of it you will never have a failure like they show in the video. I would not own one of those HK rifles. Yeah, so its got a piston and can shoot out of water. It also cost 4 times what a M4 clone does, It also weighs almost twice what a M4 does, the for end is half again larger than a slim Keymod rail. The sights suck and you have to carry a tool to adjust the rear. It will only likes HK mags that cost $80 each and it is full of parts that dont work in any other AR. When they first where available to civilians I wanted one in the worst way and was set to buy one until I actually was able to hold one. The thing is a tank, But if I wanted a tank I would carry a HK91

Your lack of an overly emotional response is refreshing, sir...

Some background...I never had a bias with the ARs/M4s until recently.

As an FYI, I used to own two ARs...now just one. Never even wanted an AK because of the mixed issues with the AMD-65s and the VZ-58s that were being fielded with the Kalashnikovs in Afghanistan (AKMs, RPKs, AKSs, etc.). I was told that the closest you'll get (as a civilian) to a Kalashnikov was a Saiga, and I had no knowledge of how to convert them from their "sport" versions to the AK we know and love at the time (this was back in 2006). But then I got to handle some Yuogos, WASR-10s and MAK-90s and started to feel the reliability and quality I saw from their Russian-made counterparts.

So after the 2008 primaries (when I knew it was going to be either Hillary or Obama) I went and got my second AR and a WASR-10 (just mainly out of fear of another AWB).

So my love for AKs is building while my love for ARs is fading is a better way to describe it. I don't "hate" ARs, I just think that since the late 60s their have been advancements in rifles that surpass your standard AR platform that could be mass produced and drive the price down for civilians (IF ONLY THE FREEKIN MILITARY WOULD ABANDON THE PLATFORM!). The FN SCAR, for example, is far superior to the M16 line.

I am really looking forward to the next innovation from <broken link removed> . After the Vector, they realized that they were striking oil in a place nobody thought to dig.

There is a lot of demand for rifles outside the AR line-up, but nobody has the disposible income to get outside of the AR platform (something that is almost in every gun store).

I once knew a gun shop owner that would only sell American guns...not because he thought other guns were better, just a personal bias...that means no Glocks, FNPs, Berettas, Saigas, Mosins...that's a big market! So I see the same thing happening to the AK...nobody wants it because nobody carries it. You have to pretty much get online for the ammo in bulk and any accessories for it while you can walk into an ACE Hardware store and leave a mall ninja with an AR, mags, carriers, ammo and sights.

 

[Just Jim]

"So my love for AKs is building while my love for ARs is fading is a better way to describe it. I don't "hate" ARs, I just think that since the late 60s their have been advancements in rifles that surpass your standard AR platform that could be mass produced and drive the price down for civilians (IF ONLY THE FREEKIN MILITARY WOULD ABANDON THE PLATFORM!). The FN SCAR, for example, is far superior to the M16 line."

Yet you love an even older design the AK"47".

 

[happypuppy]

The unreliable gas system? You do realize the gas system has been used on the M1 garand and carbine as well as the M 14. The incidences of problems you relate are rare occurrences. I do like the AK platform but for the main reason the ammo is cheap ( used to be steel case ar and ak is about the same price. ) and the rifles are inexpensive.

 

[Riot]

The unreliable gas system? You do realize the gas system has been used on the M1 garand and carbine as well as the M 14.

Come again?


M14

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading

 

[Boats]

I have had piston semis and DI semis. I won't own a DI gun again. Not due to reliability issues per se, but because they are a relative PITA for cleaning and routine maintenance.

 

[Will_Power]

in the mean time it costs 20-25% as much to shoot the 5.56

That's an impressive figure. Mind unpacking that one a bit?

The cheap steelcased .223 I've seen is running thirty-mid forty cents a round, while the cheapo .308 is ten to twenty cents more a round if you're buying factory made. Obviously the disparity grows if you're looking at even the cheapest decent match stuff you could get away with (I like Prvi Partisan for that).

Curious how you're getting such significant cost savings.

 

[IronMonster]

Ok so its more like 30-35% The last Wolf .223 I bought was $225/1000 shipped. The comparable Wolf .308 is $710/1000 plus shipping

I should just say "Its a lot cheaper"

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The solution to the AR lube issue in dusty environs is called telfon spray. My ARs are for anti personnel CQC situations in normal situations, my HK roller locks, SIGs and AKs are for extreme SHTF

Don't forget the 12 GA pump or auto, one of the most valuable short range weapons

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Ok so its more like 30-35% The last Wolf .223 I bought was $225/1000 shipped. The comparable Wolf .308 is $710/1000 plus shipping

I should just say "Its a lot cheaper"

7.62 NATO is for handloaders and multimillionaires

 

[IronMonster]

I just picked up a Benelli M4, Talk about a solid platform. Hard to beat.


You know another thing I like about the AR I got reminded of today. My Brownells 2014-2015 "AR-15/M16" catalog showed up. 104 pages of nothing but AR bits and accessory. The crazy thing is even the many thousands of bits in it are only a wee fraction of whats available to feed your evil rifle obsession

There is no other rifle that comes close to the swag available. The AR is the most popular sporting rifle in the US by a large margin.

 

[erudne]

I grew-up w/the M-1 Garand (we called it the Grand, cus we were lazy)
When Uncle Sugar tried to make it better he only made it heavier (yeah, slightly more accurate but the Garand was a war winner from the start, sniff).
An extra 12 rounds per load, OK I'll live w/that;
And the lines were as sexy as a 1950's fold-out.
And it would pop a Soviet helmet at 500 yards.
10.5 pounds, easy if your not packin it