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Temporary borrow of a machine gun?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by pchewn, May 31, 2012.

  1. pchewn

    pchewn Beaverton Oregon USA Well-Known Member

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    Scenario:

    Person A owns a machine gun. (With all the appropriate tax forms, etc....)
    Person B would like to use the machine gun for a day at the range.

    Can person A lend the machine gun to person B for a day?

    Can person B borrow the machine gun from person A for a day? (Person A would not be present at the range that day)

    Real experience doing this?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  2. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    Owner must be present
     
  3. pchewn

    pchewn Beaverton Oregon USA Well-Known Member

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    Any reference to actual law or other ruling/document?
     
  4. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    For transfer tax purposes, a “transfer” involves “selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of” the firearm (26 USC § 5845(j)). It does not apply to (1) transfers of registered firearms between licensees (importers, manufacturers, and dealers) who have paid the special occupational tax; (2) transfers to state or federal agencies; (3) exportation of firearms (provided appropriate proof of the export is provided to ATF and documentation completed); or (4) transfer of unserviceable firearms as defined in law (26 USC §§ 5851-5854 & 27 CFR §§ 479.88-91). ATF also does not consider any of the following activities as a transfer for tax purposes (1) possession of machine guns by employees who take custody of the firearms within the scope of their employment and for the licensee's business purposes, (2) distribution of registered firearms to lawful heirs, and (3) temporary transfers to federal firearm licensees for repair.
     
  5. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

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    I believe there was a case like this in Wisconsin or Michigan where person A loaned his semi-auto AR-15 style rifle to person B. The ammo and/or trigger group failed caused it to burst 2 or 3 rounds, once or twice. Someone reported it and the ATF arrested the owner of the rifle. I don't remember the full outcome but it was a very nasty situation.

    Don't loan stuff that takes 6 months of paperwork and is directly assigned to you. Bad policy.
    M
     
  6. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    The registration or transfer process (to an individual or corporation) takes approximately 3–6 months to complete as of October 2011. Additionally, the firearm can never be handled or transported by any other private individual unless the firearm's registered owner is present. Corporations which own NFA firearms can loan them to any employee of the corporation with a letter of permission on the corporate letterhead. NFA items owned by trusts may be legally possessed by any trustee (i.e., if a husband and wife are both trustees, either of them may use and transport the firearm without the other present).
     
  7. pchewn

    pchewn Beaverton Oregon USA Well-Known Member

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    OK, understood. Seems weird, as we aren't actually transferring ownership .... but that's our tax dollars at work!
     
  8. pchewn

    pchewn Beaverton Oregon USA Well-Known Member

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    Oh crap! I was holding and admiring the machine gun when person A left the room to go to the bathroom! What crime did we commit!
     
    Redcap and (deleted member) like this.
  9. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    If the drapes were open it could be indecent exposure but we'll just assume they were closed........you asked.....LOL
     
    fd15k, Burt Gummer, Stomper and 3 others like this.
  10. Capn Jack

    Capn Jack Wet-Stern Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Do Not Pass Go...Go Directly To Jail! :laugh:;)

    Jack...:cool:
     
  11. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Here is my machine gun dilemma;
    A very generous older friend passes away and names me in his will and living trust.
    Part of my inheritance when his widow passes away, is a gun collection that includes a Thompson, Mac 11 and a 9mm suppressor.
    All have appropriate tax stamps in his name.
    The elderly widow states that only her son (he lives in Chicago and can't own any auto weapons) and myself will inherit all of the firearms including the full autos.
    The problem is that her husbands (will) only stated "wife gets guns". No other appointment or deceleration as to the transfer of the full autos is mentioned.
    Three years goes by since the death of my friend and I finally get the widow to talk to a lawyer about dealing with these three tax stamped items.
    What a mess.
    After the lawyer contacts the ATF, their ruling is to declare that too much time has passed as far as transferring the tax stamps into her name and the three items are now contraband items and will have to be destroyed.
    Only after some quick thinking by the lawyer, it's determined that they can be saved if a probate of his will can be opened and then have the widow declared as the legal recipient of the machine guns.
    Then a firearms trust will be created naming her, myself and her son as trustee's.
    Cost of all this will be $10.000.00 or more.
    And to top it all off, the ATF also stated that the widow has committed a felony by not dealing with these items in a timely manner.
     
  12. FarmerTed1971

    FarmerTed1971 Portland, Oregon, United States Well-Known Member

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    $10k sounds about right for a FA Thompson, FA Mac-11 and a supressor. Did you want it for free?
     
  13. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    The lawyers bill is ten grand just to keep them legal and from being destroyed.
     
  14. FarmerTed1971

    FarmerTed1971 Portland, Oregon, United States Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I understand that but if they are getting willed to you for free but you have to pay a lawyer $10k that seems fair to me.

    Sucks though.
     
  15. Capn Jack

    Capn Jack Wet-Stern Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Sounds Cheap to me....Selling of the Thompson alone would cover that.:thumbup:

    Jack...:cool:
     
  16. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I am not footing the bill, the widow is.
    The moral of the story here, is to not procrastinate when dealing with the ATF.
     
    Burt Gummer and (deleted member) like this.
  17. PBinWA

    PBinWA Clark County Well-Known Member

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    I would offer to foot the bill for the widow if you get the guns. It's a sound investment that is only going to increase in value.
     
  18. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    Jbett is a standup guy and I'd consider him a friend. However - what do the kiddies call it? - a bestie? Yes, he will be upgraded to a bestie/BFF once he gets his hands on that Thompson LOL!!!! :)

    People let me tell you about my best friend, he's got a 50 round cuddling toy ...... it's his up and down his pride and joy ....
     
  19. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I tried that angle from the get-go. Offered to pay any and all legal fees to transfer them into my name.
    Offered to pay what her husband bought them for originally and the transfer fees.
    But, when dealing with an elderly widow who having recently lost her husband, the last thing she wanted to think about was those "stupid machine guns".
    Plus, there is the issue of the son in Chicago who has his hat in the ring concerning these items. Even though he knows he can't own them in his state.
    Most guys dream of owning a full auto firearm, but there is a lot of hassle that comes with them.
     
  20. nick80

    nick80 Portland New Member

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    classic