I wasnt aware until now, is there a thread with info?
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I wasnt aware until now, is there a thread with info?
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Here is my original post. Reno911 and norm0931 and others volunteered to meet with these guys (Jason was at the clean up)
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/t...ange-in-tillamook-forest.213617/#post-1394332
If you want to help, I'd say message Reno911 since he has been to most of the meetings.
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Here in another example of a bad place people are shooting at. This turnout on the left overlooks hwy 6. People shoot here with just trees keeping bullets from traveling down the hwy.
from above
Here is the perspective from the drivers point of view. Someone at the top of the ridge might have a gun pointed directly at you
from above
Here is the perspective from the drivers point of view. Someone at the top of the ridge might have a gun pointed directly at you
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Even walking in my shoes one will come away with a different perception of events. I am only offering a different view of a scenario with many different endings. Only an unlikely few come out positive for me.
Where one sees compromise another see manipulation and required capitulation.
Here is the sticky part of the following rant, Individually, I have met a lot of fine people in government but as earnest as they are they don't write the rules and are just doing their job and so I am not criticizing the individuals but the entity. I know that likely has no appeasement value Nonetheless I feel compelled to continue.
The dissolution of trust when it comes to government (for me) has been a long, unwilling trek supported by more disappointing episodes than I can remember. Now skepticism and suspicion of motives prevail.
I watched my parents try unsuccessfully to preserve things or help neighbors through town halls and the PTA's. I have done the same many times.
I have worked for the US forrest service in the 60's.
I have also spent four years in minor leadership in the Navy, done government contract work for all branches of the service, worked for ten years for Portland public schools, and a year for Washington County.
I have learned many things from this governmental exposure some of which is for the most part, what citizens want is irrelevant. Governments do not see people as partners but chattel to be managed. Opinions of average folk are unimportant unless it benefits an agenda, Many if not most public meetings and surveys related to governmental entities only happen because it is required by law. Why would there be a law if not for abuse? I have even had public notices for meetings posted after the actual meeting to ensure no one would be there to make them look bad. I've watched two people of power, A Mayor and prominent businessman destroy lives and steal land for their own profit while protested fruitlessly by many @ development meetings. Rarely will anyone be accountable.
I don't want the forest "Preserved" They are public lands and should be accessible by the public FREE and clear. sooner or later they will move the vernacular to reserve, sanctuary, or national parks & monuments in order to limit access for good.
Meetings, will not change or even slow any use of public lands agenda that's contrary at least to my liking.
It has been less than a month since the last forest clean up I attended where a forest official said (paraphrasing) " we are not looking to close down", "we want to work with you". Now they are emphatically stating they are wanting to "Shut down more areas" for the good of the people. Unfortunately the government people at the meetings, many good people are doing the best they can enabling an agenda set by others usually unseen by them and so the water flows diluting all of culpability.
Good luck with your partnership efforts to organize the wilderness and keep people safe.
I see upcoming crowded shooting zones of impatient people who will eventually be limited in their shooting actions, charged for the experience for ultimate maintenance with winter closures because of slippery unsafe roads and no one wants to empty the trash.
This is not pessimistic outlook but experience from a long life seeing Oregon and Washington trails to campgrounds fall one by one under the same outcome.
Ok, I'm done.
Where one sees compromise another see manipulation and required capitulation.
Here is the sticky part of the following rant, Individually, I have met a lot of fine people in government but as earnest as they are they don't write the rules and are just doing their job and so I am not criticizing the individuals but the entity. I know that likely has no appeasement value Nonetheless I feel compelled to continue.
The dissolution of trust when it comes to government (for me) has been a long, unwilling trek supported by more disappointing episodes than I can remember. Now skepticism and suspicion of motives prevail.
I watched my parents try unsuccessfully to preserve things or help neighbors through town halls and the PTA's. I have done the same many times.
I have worked for the US forrest service in the 60's.
I have also spent four years in minor leadership in the Navy, done government contract work for all branches of the service, worked for ten years for Portland public schools, and a year for Washington County.
I have learned many things from this governmental exposure some of which is for the most part, what citizens want is irrelevant. Governments do not see people as partners but chattel to be managed. Opinions of average folk are unimportant unless it benefits an agenda, Many if not most public meetings and surveys related to governmental entities only happen because it is required by law. Why would there be a law if not for abuse? I have even had public notices for meetings posted after the actual meeting to ensure no one would be there to make them look bad. I've watched two people of power, A Mayor and prominent businessman destroy lives and steal land for their own profit while protested fruitlessly by many @ development meetings. Rarely will anyone be accountable.
I don't want the forest "Preserved" They are public lands and should be accessible by the public FREE and clear. sooner or later they will move the vernacular to reserve, sanctuary, or national parks & monuments in order to limit access for good.
Meetings, will not change or even slow any use of public lands agenda that's contrary at least to my liking.
It has been less than a month since the last forest clean up I attended where a forest official said (paraphrasing) " we are not looking to close down", "we want to work with you". Now they are emphatically stating they are wanting to "Shut down more areas" for the good of the people. Unfortunately the government people at the meetings, many good people are doing the best they can enabling an agenda set by others usually unseen by them and so the water flows diluting all of culpability.
Good luck with your partnership efforts to organize the wilderness and keep people safe.
I see upcoming crowded shooting zones of impatient people who will eventually be limited in their shooting actions, charged for the experience for ultimate maintenance with winter closures because of slippery unsafe roads and no one wants to empty the trash.
This is not pessimistic outlook but experience from a long life seeing Oregon and Washington trails to campgrounds fall one by one under the same outcome.
Ok, I'm done.
I think a list is OK, but perhaps 2 are in order:
One for the generic public
One perhaps for 'vetted members' somehow (donors only to NWFA perhaps? or some other method of buy in) who keep the list between themselves and pledge to keep it clean?
I'm dont shoot nearly as much as I want because I don't want to shoot with some random creepers in the woods who don't know basic etiquette..
One for the generic public
One perhaps for 'vetted members' somehow (donors only to NWFA perhaps? or some other method of buy in) who keep the list between themselves and pledge to keep it clean?
I'm dont shoot nearly as much as I want because I don't want to shoot with some random creepers in the woods who don't know basic etiquette..
...while things are being developed, lets make a range(a few would be nice) that are only accessible with 4wd ATVs...that would give those of us that like to trail ride and go shooting a place. Plus it would keep most of the bad(lazy) shooters away since they couldn't get there in their crappy tercel or no traction sand quads.
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Hi everybody - Long time lurker, first time poster! Reading this thread has inspired me to join and participate in the forum, as I have had direct experience with this exact issue in a different sport (Surfing). I don't have the time right at this moment to type out my thoughts so will add to the thread later today but I just wanted to chime in and say that making an online map with directions to "secret" shooting spots is a BAD IDEA! Sorry for the tease but I'll explain why later. Anyway, thanks to all you guys for providing hours of entertainment and education.
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I think a list is OK, but perhaps 2 are in order:
One for the generic public
One perhaps for 'vetted members' somehow (donors only to NWFA perhaps? or some other method of buy in) who keep the list between themselves and pledge to keep it clean?
I'm dont shoot nearly as much as I want because I don't want to shoot with some random creepers in the woods who don't know basic etiquette..
That's why I always have a loaded gun and do NOT share shooting spots - either physically or advertise them online.
Improvements are great especially that photo where people are shooting at the highway, that should be shut down but a map with spots is still imo a very bad idea and I'm happy this isnt happening in SW WA.
If people want to find new shooting area's then they should sign up and go to the Cleanups NWFA does. Then they get educated as wel as learn a new place to shoot and how to pick up after themselves.
Y'all have my respect for trying to do something though.
What about posting some and leaving some off, having a special list available to supporting members that's not for "general consumption"?
I am all for getting the spots out there, provided they are maintained.
If you add a spot to the general list, and it becomes an eyesore, take it off the list till it improves etc.
Also news flash guys, you're "secret" spots usually are only "secret" in your head or there's a reason you're the only one who shoots there (like it shouldn't ever have been a "shooting spot" to begin with because its not safe for example).
There's only so much space out there, we don't personally own or have rights to it any more than anyone else unless we label it and prove its use before they do, that MIGHT give us a fighting chance at protecting a pre existing location.
Furthermore, if you want people to get into shooting, you need to show them where to go. Somewhere that's not a range charging way too much for some bubblegum RO to stand over their shoulder and monitor them for "safety" and criticize and make them feel uncomfortable. Training is one thing, shooting for sport / fun is another. I know a few people that have been turned off by shooting because of the ridiculous , uptight and draconian ranges and their expensive fees.
We live in Oregon, Ill shoot in the woods. Ill help share those spots and keep them clean when I use them. That's about the best we could ever hope for. Did anyone stop to consider we MIGHT attract GOOD shooters and enthusiasts as well? They aren't ALL going to drive their trucks up filled with 32 inch TV's to shoot and leave there.
Some will. Not all.
I am all for getting the spots out there, provided they are maintained.
If you add a spot to the general list, and it becomes an eyesore, take it off the list till it improves etc.
Also news flash guys, you're "secret" spots usually are only "secret" in your head or there's a reason you're the only one who shoots there (like it shouldn't ever have been a "shooting spot" to begin with because its not safe for example).
There's only so much space out there, we don't personally own or have rights to it any more than anyone else unless we label it and prove its use before they do, that MIGHT give us a fighting chance at protecting a pre existing location.
Furthermore, if you want people to get into shooting, you need to show them where to go. Somewhere that's not a range charging way too much for some bubblegum RO to stand over their shoulder and monitor them for "safety" and criticize and make them feel uncomfortable. Training is one thing, shooting for sport / fun is another. I know a few people that have been turned off by shooting because of the ridiculous , uptight and draconian ranges and their expensive fees.
We live in Oregon, Ill shoot in the woods. Ill help share those spots and keep them clean when I use them. That's about the best we could ever hope for. Did anyone stop to consider we MIGHT attract GOOD shooters and enthusiasts as well? They aren't ALL going to drive their trucks up filled with 32 inch TV's to shoot and leave there.
Some will. Not all.
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It's not like your going to bring in a Bunch of new shooters by sharing spots.
You need guns (expensive), ammo (expensive) and an off road vehicle (expensive or just not had in urban areas).
More likely you will just show the lazy people not willing to participate in cleanups, where else to go and trash up.
Yea, there aren't a lot of 'secret spots' for those that drive the forest but for city folks those spots are legends. You may be the only one there on Sunday but start advertising that info and you'll be either sharing that spot all day or do what I do and become unfriendly enough that they don't stop to unload their rig to begin with.
And for the record, paying a minimal fee for a range to have RO's watch and help keep them safe probably is the same or less then driving out to the boonies.
You need guns (expensive), ammo (expensive) and an off road vehicle (expensive or just not had in urban areas).
More likely you will just show the lazy people not willing to participate in cleanups, where else to go and trash up.
Yea, there aren't a lot of 'secret spots' for those that drive the forest but for city folks those spots are legends. You may be the only one there on Sunday but start advertising that info and you'll be either sharing that spot all day or do what I do and become unfriendly enough that they don't stop to unload their rig to begin with.
And for the record, paying a minimal fee for a range to have RO's watch and help keep them safe probably is the same or less then driving out to the boonies.
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About 15 years ago someone posted an online map of local surf breaks with gps coordinates, driving directions, etc.. Their rationale was exactly the same as what y'all are talking about, they said it would spread people out over a larger number of beaches, alleviate crowds, and make it easier for newbies to learn about the sport. Of course, this pissed off all the local surfers who had spent their lives finding and learning about these places, as this knowledge was hard won over many decades. The newcomers were stoked of course, and they started exploring places they had never even considered surfing before.
The problem is that many of these spots were secret, and you only learned about them if you had put in some serious time exploring (which meant that you would have an appreciation for the spot and would treat it respectfully) or you had proven yourself and your abilities to the people who did know about the place, and they would share their knowledge. Now, on any given day, these places are overrun with people who fancy themselves outdoorsmen just because they have a Patagonia sticker on their Subaru and who have a complete lack of respect and appreciation for the beautiful, pristine beaches in this state. They light beach fires on private property, rut up access roads with their mediocre driving skills, leave trash, blast music as they speed through residential areas, and just behave like entitled jackasses in general. I know that the outdoors is there for all of us to enjoy, and I am more than willing to share knowledge with fellow enthusiasts, but I firmly believe that there is some information and certain areas that you Shouldn't know unless you have put in the time and proven that you deserve the knowledge, and have the ability to use it.
The idea of having 2 different maps is a good one I think, or making the map available only to members who have been vetted. I know there are a lot of well known shooting spots that aren't on the map over at WaGuns, and making this information available to the general public probably won't harm anything. But I think we need to be very careful about how comprehensive the map is, as I guarantee you that once the info gets out online, there will be hordes of disrespectful yahoos trashing up once pristine areas.
Anyway, I know I myself am a newb here so my opinions probably don't count for much- just my 2 cents!
The problem is that many of these spots were secret, and you only learned about them if you had put in some serious time exploring (which meant that you would have an appreciation for the spot and would treat it respectfully) or you had proven yourself and your abilities to the people who did know about the place, and they would share their knowledge. Now, on any given day, these places are overrun with people who fancy themselves outdoorsmen just because they have a Patagonia sticker on their Subaru and who have a complete lack of respect and appreciation for the beautiful, pristine beaches in this state. They light beach fires on private property, rut up access roads with their mediocre driving skills, leave trash, blast music as they speed through residential areas, and just behave like entitled jackasses in general. I know that the outdoors is there for all of us to enjoy, and I am more than willing to share knowledge with fellow enthusiasts, but I firmly believe that there is some information and certain areas that you Shouldn't know unless you have put in the time and proven that you deserve the knowledge, and have the ability to use it.
The idea of having 2 different maps is a good one I think, or making the map available only to members who have been vetted. I know there are a lot of well known shooting spots that aren't on the map over at WaGuns, and making this information available to the general public probably won't harm anything. But I think we need to be very careful about how comprehensive the map is, as I guarantee you that once the info gets out online, there will be hordes of disrespectful yahoos trashing up once pristine areas.
Anyway, I know I myself am a newb here so my opinions probably don't count for much- just my 2 cents!
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Learn from this mans wisdom and ignore it at the risk of yours and all of your family, friends here and IRL friends futures.It's not negativity it's reality and the nature of people today to take advantage of bad ideas born of good intentions.
Hold more cleanups and the people that go will find a new place to shoot and be invested in the spot after spending a day cleaning up others trash.
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Oh and I forgot to mention that many of the spots I was talking about in the above scenario ended up being closed off to public access once they started getting trashed/overcrowded.
I agree with BlackRyder and Joe13.
I think it would be more productive to get new shooters to go to an established range with a RO and learn the rules and etiquette. Even if you only publish the already very well know spots (browns camp, wolf creek....) if the newbies dont know the laws and etiquette you wont have solved anything except make the vandalism increase....
I think it would be more productive to get new shooters to go to an established range with a RO and learn the rules and etiquette. Even if you only publish the already very well know spots (browns camp, wolf creek....) if the newbies dont know the laws and etiquette you wont have solved anything except make the vandalism increase....
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So all the above is great feedback. I'm thinking this map shouldn't have a whole bunch of spots on it, sort of opposite from my original thoughts. I am leaning more to advertising safer and easier to access spots. Also spots that can be easier to clean.
ODF and myself have noticed that the average weekend shooter isn't like many here. They aren't really worried too much about the safety aspect, mostly just the ease of access.
Most of these people are good people, but are ignorant to a lot of things folks hear take seriously.
Other than education, which only goes so far. Giving out proper resources is also responsible in my opinion.
I'll pass along a lot of these thoughts and opinions next time I sit down with ODF.
ODF and myself have noticed that the average weekend shooter isn't like many here. They aren't really worried too much about the safety aspect, mostly just the ease of access.
Most of these people are good people, but are ignorant to a lot of things folks hear take seriously.
Other than education, which only goes so far. Giving out proper resources is also responsible in my opinion.
I'll pass along a lot of these thoughts and opinions next time I sit down with ODF.
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