SIG P-320, redux...

[Kruel J]

The only pistol that I feel totally safe carrying these days is a 1911, even a series 70 vs series 80 Colt doesn't worry me. All of my revolvers have transfer bars, but all but one is too big to discreetly carry. My Glock and Berettas are too big. The 1911's are nice and thin.

I'd carry a 1911 all day long before I carried a 320. And not just because of these lawsuits.

 

[lucusloc]

Guay vs. Sig Sauer, Inc. - Jury Trial verdict in favor of Sig Sauer / July 2022

Good point, but also irrelevant. If the mystery video shows a failure it shows a failure and it needs to be fixed regardless of who won the case.

Of course the jury verdict is pretty telling on if such a video actually shows a failure (or in the case of the TFBTV video I linked if said failure is still relevant today). I am skeptical that such a video exists.

 

[DirectDrive]

Good point, but also irrelevant. If the mystery video shows a failure it shows a failure and it needs to be fixed regardless of who won the case.

Of course the jury verdict is pretty telling on if such a video actually shows a failure (or in the case of the TFBTV video I linked if said failure is still relevant today). I am skeptical that such a video exists.

IIRC, the plaintiff's "expert witness" (armorer) complained that certain parts of the pistol in question were missing.
Their "tack" was to accuse SIG of assembling the pistol incorrectly.
As it turned out the part(s) were (correctly) omitted in the upgraded pistol design.

If any video did exist, apparently it didn't convince the jury.

Statement: SIG SAUER P320

Claims that the P320 is capable of firing without a trigger pull are without merit and have been soundly rejected as a matter of law by thirteen separate courts, including a unanimous jury verdict in SIG SAUER’s favor.

www.sigsauer.com

 

[1911Fanatic]

Can we please get back to the entertainment side of this issue? We need more good jokes. My ex wife cheated on me before I dumped her. I would love to find a way to put an Sig P320 in her hands. And her son is a worthless child molester. Need to get one in his hands and throw in an AIWB holster.

 

[1775usmc]

To clarify here, my post was referring to 1775usmc.

Yea we know. Haha

 

[lucusloc]

Haha. That's completely not true but ok. Keep preaching.

I already posted one, here is another: string with plastic end cap is pulling over the trigger. If the trigger face was smooth it would slip off, but since the trigger has a dongle the end cap snags and that gives enough purchase to pull the trigger. That is every bit as plausible as some sharp hook thing getting in there and pulling on just the edge of the trigger to set it off.

This really is not a debatable point. Even the manufacturers do not count this as a trigger safety device, they count it as a drop safety device.

 

[Rhinobang]

Not gonna tag on to previous P-320 threads. No reason to revive all those circular discussions.

This was semi-interesting, as it looks as though one department concluded an investigation and determined that the "uncommanded discharge" really wasn't.

Some departments pushing back on the CJTC diversity hire director's action of "banning" the 320 after one cadet had an alleged uncommanded discharge at the range.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/...-ban/281-f366e039-9495-4b9f-bb9a-91eb0c9bc2aa

Oh boy...get the tissues out for those whinny prissy Sig owners. Never an issue with a Glock

 

[DirectDrive]

There are trade-offs everywhere.
Here is the "Glock Glitch" incident where an officer's trigger dingus failed him.
The roll pin retaining the dingus walked out, snagged on his holster and the pistol discharged.

Glock glitch: Local police officer’s accidental shooting blamed on gun

West Carrollton officer recovering after leg wounds at Franklin shooting range.

www.daytondailynews.com

 

[Cerberus Group]

Sig Sauer would like to remind you that, "it ends." Or actually, it was supposed to end, but we're still busy ending it. No, no, it's definitely ended. Yes, ended. It's done. We're done. Go back to your revolvers, there's nothing to see here.

 

[1775usmc]

I already posted one, here is another: string with plastic end cap is pulling over the trigger. If the trigger face was smooth it would slip off, but since the trigger has a dongle the end cap snags and that gives enough purchase to pull the trigger. That is every bit as plausible as some sharp hook thing getting in there and pulling on just the edge of the trigger to set it off.

This really is not a debatable point. Even the manufacturers do not count this as a trigger safety device, they count it as a drop safety device.

Except due to the angle of the "dongle" it would guide the string to the upper portion of the trigger where the dongle is no longer present and in effect the trigger won't engage. The "dongle" is only present on the lower half of the trigger. Simple geometry.

Yea yea. I know that's not what it's "intended purpose."

 

[1775usmc]

There are trade-offs everywhere.
Here is the "Glock Glitch" incident where an officer's trigger dingus failed him.
The roll pin retaining the dingus walked out, snagged on his holster and the pistol discharged.

Glock glitch: Local police officer’s accidental shooting blamed on gun

West Carrollton officer recovering after leg wounds at Franklin shooting range.

www.daytondailynews.com

Yup. That right there is the perfect example of a mechanical failure.

 

[Koda]

Except due to the angle of the "dongle" it would guide the string to the upper portion of the trigger where the dongle is no longer present and in effect the trigger won't engage. The "dongle" is only present on the lower half of the trigger. Simple geometry.

Yea yea. I know that's not what it's "intended purpose."

Not necessarily when constrained in the space of a holster...

 

[lucusloc]

Except due to the angle of the "dongle" it would guide the string to the upper portion of the trigger where the dongle is no longer present and in effect the trigger won't engage. The "dongle" is only present on the lower half of the trigger. Simple geometry.

Yea yea. I know that's not what it's "intended purpose."

You have never seen a dongle on a flat trigger have you?

 

[1775usmc]

You have never seen a dongle on a flat trigger have you?

 

[lucusloc]

Yup. That right there is the perfect example of a mechanical failure.

A mechanical failure that would not have happened if there wasn't a dongle. Isn't that the standard we are using? "If Sig didn't <do something> this wouldn't have happened!" "If Sig had done <something else> this wouldn't have happened!" "Sigs are prone to mechanical failures, if they just redesign the whole thing they wont have mechanical failures anymore!"

I get the feeling that Sig can't win with some people, not because of the merits of any particular argument, but just because they are Sig.

 

[Bobbygun]

I get the feeling that Sig can't win with some people, not because of the merits of any particular argument, but just because they are Sig.

I think @1775usmc has been telling you that for several pages now.

 

[1775usmc]

A mechanical failure that would not have happened if there wasn't a dongle. Isn't that the standard we are using? "If Sig didn't <do something> this wouldn't have happened!" "If Sig had done <something else> this wouldn't have happened!" "Sigs are prone to mechanical failures, if they just redesign the whole thing they wont have mechanical failures anymore!"

I get the feeling that Sig can't win with some people, not because of the merits of any particular argument, but just because they are Sig.

Well, "If Sig would have never released a non-vetted P320, they wouldn't be in this situation."

 

[1775usmc]

I think @1775usmc has been telling you that for several pages now.

Hey you get it.

F-ck SIG and the P320. Is that clear enough? lol.

 

[lucusloc]

View attachment 2067487 View attachment 2067488 View attachment 2067489

or like this:

or this

or this



There are tons of examples of trigger dongles with no rake. There are tons of ways a dongle can snag even if there is rake. It is incorrect to claim that trigger dongles protect against some trigger pulls without also acknowledging that the can contribute to others.

 

[WillametteWill]

Guay v. Sig Sauer (2022) had video admitted into evidence of a P320 discharging without a trigger pull. I've tried to find the video of the incident but I don't think its ever been released to the public. You would likely have to file some sort of records request with the District Court of New Hampshire to get a copy of the video.

Let's use this case as an example of how misinformation is massive regarding Sigs.

Yes, there was a video introduced into evidence. No, it was not of any testing to replicate the alleged issues with Sigs. It was of an officer exiting his vehicle when the gun went off. Subsequently, his department did the right thing and found that the seatbelt hung up on the gun and it fired because the trigger was pulled. I don't know the specific details, but what reason do we have to doubt the investigation when it would be easier for them to say 'Sig bad." (I find it interesting/disturbing that whenever one of us mentions when an agency actually does some due diligence and investigates the root cause of the incident, the anti-Sig folks scream corruption...there was an investigation that found something similar in the OP article in the thread.)

Here is another case where a department did an investigation:

In 2018, the Rancho Cucamonga Police Department in California also determined that a set of keys had depressed the trigger of an officer's P320 while he was walking in his department locker room, according to court filings.​

Plaintiff lawyers focus on winning, not staying on topic or facts. As I've said before, these are complex issues that jurors and judges can easily get lost in the weeds, especially if they are led there. If you read the information about this case (that was linked in the post), there was an enormous amount going into the drop safe VUP, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CASE.

Final outcome, the plaintiff did not meet the burden (which remember is civil trials is preponderance of the evidence, or only 51%, not beyond a reasonable doubt like in criminal cases). So at the end of the day, the court ruled that it wasn't even slightly more likely than not that Sig was liable.

From the quoted case linked:
Other than Guay's testimony and the video of the Roscommon incident, Guay introduced no other evidence about specific P320s and alleged misfires.

(The Roscommon incident was the one where the department found the discharge was from the seatbelt.)