SIG P-320, redux...

[WillametteWill]

Everybody knows they are faulty. It's crazy that people can justify owning them by calling everybody a " Sig " hater. When the reality is they just don't like the P320 platform or agree with the way Sig carries themselves as a company but probably own or have spent thousands in other Sig products. I don't like the p320 I feel like this is beating a dead horse at this point. People are going to have their own personal opinion. If you choose to carry it then carry it and leave it at that. The problem is people are insecure and feel attacked. If you're carrying it clearly you have made your decision. Everybody that decides not to carry should be given the same respect as the person that decides to carry it.

Since this is a new thread with a specific article linked, if you look at the article objectively by replacing Sig with any other manufacturer, please tell me if you would reach the conclusion that (fill in the blank gun) was the problem. Two specific situations, one with an academy recruit having a gun going off while drawing and an instructor hovering above him, and another situation where the department found it was a combination of a holster issue and a foreign object pressing the trigger.

Yet again, it's Sig's fault.

Everything in this article should make those questioning Sig, at the very least, admit that these instances do not indicate that these are Sig problems. But instead, they use it to add to their SDS (Sig Derangement Syndrome).

The shortsightedness of gun people not understanding that what the media and plaintiff attorneys are "proving" is that ALL striker fired guns are unsafe. From what I understand, and others have posted here, the two cases Sig lost, it was found the trigger was pulled. And the guns fired...just like a S&W, Glock, Walther, HK, etc. would do. (Unless you have a mechanical safety.)

I'm not insecure, just frustrated at people who should know better. I don't feel attacked as I'm an M&P and 1911 guy (both with safeties) and don't own any Sigs. And in these threads, I've now been saying for years that I'll be happy to follow the evidence and modify my opinion. Yet even with an article like this, I don't see this from the "Orange Sig Bad" crowd.

You can't just say it's safe cause we "think" this is the culprit. Prove it. You have everything to do so and clear the P320 in this scenario.

So I find it interesting that you want "proof" that the holster was the issue, yet there has been no proof that Sigs go off all by themselves. The easiest thing for the department to do would have been to say, "See, Sigs again." Yet, even though they ultimately decided to change guns, they found the gun was not the issue...yet we are questioning this? It goes against their best interest to release this finding, which is an amazing argument to why it is true.

 

[1775usmc]

Since this is a new thread with a specific article linked, if you look at the article objectively by replacing Sig with any other manufacturer, please tell me if you would reach the conclusion that (fill in the blank gun) was the problem. Two specific situations, one with an academy recruit having a gun going off while drawing and an instructor hovering above him, and another situation where the department found it was a combination of a holster issue and a foreign object pressing the trigger.

Yet again, it's Sig's fault.

Everything in this article should make those questioning Sig, at the very least, admit that these instances do not indicate that these are Sig problems. But instead, they use it to add to their SDS (Sig Derangement Syndrome).

The shortsightedness of gun people not understanding that what the media and plaintiff attorneys are "proving" is that ALL striker fired guns are unsafe. From what I understand, and others have posted here, the two cases Sig lost, it was found the trigger was pulled. And the guns fired...just like a S&W, Glock, Walther, HK, etc. would do. (Unless you have a mechanical safety.)

I'm not insecure, just frustrated at people who should know better. I don't feel attacked as I'm an M&P and 1911 guy (both with safeties) and don't own any Sigs. And in these threads, I've now been saying for years that I'll be happy to follow the evidence and modify my opinion. Yet even with an article like this, I don't see this from the "Orange Sig Bad" crowd.


So I find it interesting that you want "proof" that the holster was the issue, yet there has been no proof that Sigs go off all by themselves. The easiest thing for the department to do would have been to say, "See, Sigs again." Yet, even though they ultimately decided to change guns, they found the gun was not the issue...yet we are questioning this? It goes against their best interest to release this finding, which is an amazing argument to why it is true.

It's not that. I have no issue if proof is laid before me. Until then I will distance myself from the platform. It may be safe. You may be right. But I see a reoccurring issue. Either that or cops and LE are liars 100% of the time a discharge takes place. Some of which has been on video. It's enough to cause me to take a step back. Enough cause that I sold all of my P320s. Yes I used to own and carry multiple.

Just because a police department or the manufacturer says something is safe doesn't mean I have to believe them. They aren't God.

This platform has been plagued with issues from the start. This isn't me just bashing SIG. I was an avid user of theirs for a pretty decent period of time. I actually really liked the P320 and was heavily invested in them. I'm not someone throwing shade who's never owned or carried one.

All I am saying that in a scenario like this just recreated the discharge from an outside element and clear the platform in that scenario. A platform that a lot of people in the military, LE and civilian population carry and use but are slowly loosing trust in.

That's all I am trying to say. Personally I do not trust the gun and the company has done nothing to regain my trust. In fact they have solidified my options.

Yes this is all personal opinions and views. I have no "facts." But it is enough for me as a grown individual to make my own decision about my own safety and walk away.

That's all. Ridicule me all you want. That's ok. Yes I troll SIG a lot. It's fun. Give me a P-series all day long. Just keep the P320 away from me.

 

[1775usmc]

Thank you for admitting the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Been over 2 years now and nobody has replicated the UD.

True. And they have had everything in their possession to prove what did cause the gun to go off and have yet to do so. Other than a human finger.

 

[Koda]

True. And they have had everything in their possession to prove what did cause the gun to go off and have yet to do so. Other than a human finger.

You keep repeating this and its not true. The burden of proof to replicate the problem is not on Sig.

If DEQ told you your car failed emissions testing and provided no printout for proof, yet demanded that -you- prove your car is passing you would demand they prove it. The burden of proof is that simple.

 

[TTSX]

Sig apologists everywhere

 

[1775usmc]

You keep repeating this and its not true. The burden of proof to replicate the problem is not on Sig.

If DEQ told you your car failed emissions testing and provided no printout for proof, yet demanded that -you- prove your car is passing you would demand they prove it. The burden of proof is that simple.

Ok. But if you had the tools to prove the truth and shut up the nay-sayers wouldn't you do that? Rather than just screaming online?

 

[1775usmc]

Sig apologists everywhere

Welcome to the party. Let me get you up to speed… same talking points. New thread.

 

[TTSX]

Welcome to the party. Let me get you up to speed… same talking points. New thread.

But THIS one is different

 

[1775usmc]

But THIS one is different

It's really building my confidence.

 

[Koda]

Ok. But if you had the tools to prove the truth and shut up the nay-sayers wouldn't you do that? Rather than just screaming online?

No one can prove something that doesn't exist, this is called an unfalsifiable fallacy. Its the basic foundation of the burden of proof being 100% on the person making the claim.

 

[1775usmc]

No one can prove something that doesn't exist, this is called an unfalsifiable fallacy. Its the basic foundation of the burden of proof being 100% on the person making the claim.

Take a pair of handcuffs and run it past the trigger in a duty holster. I'll wait.

Oh and they're the ones that "claimed" that. So it's on them to prove it.

Here's the holster.

Level 3 Duty Holster for Sig Sauer Handguns with Light

Equip your light-bearing Sig Sauer with our Level 3 RAPID FORCE® Duty Holster, offering enhanced retention and quick access for law enforcement professionals.

aliengearholsters.com

 

[TTSX]

No one can prove something that doesn't exist, this is called an unfalsifiable fallacy. Its the basic foundation of the burden of proof being 100% on the person making the claim.

Bless you father, for many have sinned

 

[WillametteWill]

It's not that. I have no issue if proof is laid before me. Until then I will distance myself from the platform. It may be safe. You may be right. But I see a reoccurring issue. Either that or cops and LE are liars 100% of the time a discharge takes place. Some of which has been on video. It's enough to cause me to take a step back. Enough cause that I sold all of my P320s. Yes I used to own and carry multiple.

Just because a police department or the manufacturer says something is safe doesn't mean I have to believe them. They aren't God.

This platform has been plagued with issues from the start. This isn't me just bashing SIG. I was an avid user of theirs for a pretty decent period of time. I actually really liked the P320 and was heavily invested in them. I'm not someone throwing shade who's never owned or carried one.

All I am saying that in a scenario like this just recreated the discharge from an outside element and clear the platform in that scenario. A platform that a lot of people in the military, LE and civilian population carry and use but are slowly loosing trust in.

That's all I am trying to say. Personally I do not trust the gun and the company has done nothing to regain my trust. In fact they have solidified my options.

Yes this is all personal opinions and views. I have no "facts." But it is enough for me as a grown individual to make my own decision about my own safety and walk away.

That's all. Ridicule me all you want. That's ok. Yes I troll SIG a lot. It's fun. Give me a P-series all day long. Just keep the P320 away from me.

Just so you know, my initial comments were not aimed at you. We disagree, but I know you researched information and posted items you found relevant. I have respect for that. I also respect that you don't feel comfortable with the platform and have chosen something else. Again, complete respect for your decision.

And I'm not accusing you of saying I'm a Sig fanboy, but it's been a theme with others. For the record, the 320 had a recall for a reason. I tend to think it should not have been voluntary. Early 365s had firing pin drag issues. I knew folks who experienced this, including broken firing pins. Not a good thing. Folks I worked with back in the day had P226s that seemed extremely finicky with ammo. Not a fan of this considering my Gen 3 Smiths (and current M&Ps) eat anything. In general (and I have this PERSONAL dislike for a few guns because of this) some have very light trigger pulls and no mechanical safeties. I've stated my case on this issues regarding this over the years.

 

[Koda]

Take a pair of handcuffs and run it past the trigger in a duty holster. I'll wait.

Oh and they're the ones that "claimed" that. So it's on them to prove it.

Here's the holster.

Level 3 Duty Holster for Sig Sauer Handguns with Light

Equip your light-bearing Sig Sauer with our Level 3 RAPID FORCE® Duty Holster, offering enhanced retention and quick access for law enforcement professionals.

aliengearholsters.com

Again, not Sigs problem.

Hypothetical thought experiment: if we gave you 1 million dollars to prove Sig 320s are safe how would you go about proving it and if you did what would be the proof?

 

[1775usmc]

Just so you know, my initial comments were not aimed at you. We disagree, but I know you researched information and posted items you found relevant. I have respect for that. I also respect that you don't feel comfortable with the platform and have chosen something else. Again, complete respect for your decision.

And I'm not accusing you of saying I'm an Sig fanboy, but it's been a theme with others. For the record, the 320 had a recall for a reason. I tend to think it should not have been voluntary. Early 365s had firing pin drag issues. I knew folks who experienced this, including broken firing pins. Not a good thing. Folks I worked with back in the day had P226s that seemed extremely finicky with ammo. Not a fan of this considering my Gen 3 Smiths (and current M&Ps) eat anything. In general (and I have this PERSONAL dislike for a few guns because of this) some have very light trigger pulls and no mechanical safeties. I've stated my case on this issues regarding this over the years.

I wish it was a recall.

Instead they called it a VUP "voluntary upgrade program" and still refused to acknowledge that their guns were drop safe. In fact they have yet to acknowledge it. They play it off as something extremely rare. Even though it could be easily recreated at that point in time.

It just deepens my distrust.

 

[1775usmc]

Again, not Sigs problem.

Hypothetical thought experiment: if we gave you 1 million dollars to prove Sig 320s are safe how would you go about proving it and if you did what would be the proof?

Not what I am talking about.

I'm talking about the specific event in the video in the article. The investigation concluded the gun was safe and that a "strap" of the handgun made its way into the holster and discharged the gun. If that's the case prove it. And if you can't get the handcuff to engage with the trigger while in the holster then we go back to square one.

Either the gun went off, holstered and untouched or there's something else. It's a good ol' stand off.

You can't just throw sh!t at the wall and hope it sticks. We aren't making pasta here.

 

[Koda]

Not what I am talking about.

I thought this whole time you've been saying Sig should have to prove their guns are safe?

True. And they have had everything in their possession to prove what did cause the gun to go off and have yet to do so. Other than a human finger.

Ok. But if you had the tools to prove the truth and shut up the nay-sayers wouldn't you do that? Rather than just screaming online?

Oh and they're the ones that "claimed" that. So it's on them to prove it.

 

[1775usmc]

I thought this whole time you've been saying Sig should have to prove their guns are safe?

lol. Deflect. I'm talking about the police department. That says they "investigated" it and found it to be safe and was potentially discharged by a handcuff "strap."

All I said is if they claim an outside element made the gun go off then recreate it. They got the gun, the holster and the cuffs. Prove it was the cuffs + holster and not the gun itself. You know how all the P320 defenders ask if the gun that went off was sent into Sig with the holster to be investigated/examined and the answer is always no. This is the flip flop of that.

With your thought process I could argue if they can't recreate it with the cuffs then the gun went off by itself in the holster. Haha.

This is dumb.

 

[TTSX]

lol. Deflect. I'm talking about the police department. That says they "investigated" it and found it to be safe and was potentially discharged by a handcuff "strap."

All I said is if they claim an outside element made the gun go off then recreate it. They got the gun, the holster and the cuffs. Prove it was the cuffs + holster and not the gun itself.

With your thought process I could argue if they can't recreate it with the cuffs then the gun went off by itself in the holster. Haha.

This is dumb.

All I want to know is why this isn't happening with any other model from any other brand. If it really was a training/holster issue, Glocks, M&Ps, HKs and whatever else gets issued would also be having the same problems. They aren't, so the only thing I can conclude is that the gun is the problem for one reason or another, even if that problem is being especially prone to idiots mishandling it.

 

[Koda]

lol. Deflect. I'm talking about the police department. That says they "investigated" it and found it to be safe and was potentially discharged by a handcuff "strap."

All I said is if they claim an outside element made the gun go off then recreate it. They got the gun, the holster and the cuffs. Prove it was the cuffs + holster and not the gun itself. You know how all the P320 defenders ask if the gun that went off was sent into Sig with the holster to be investigated/examined and the answer is always no. This is the flip flop of that.

With your thought process I could argue if they can't recreate it with the cuffs then the gun went off by itself in the holster. Haha.

This is dumb.

So your asking the department to prove their investigation is true?