SIG P-320, redux...

[Old Dog]

Not gonna tag on to previous P-320 threads. No reason to revive all those circular discussions.

This was semi-interesting, as it looks as though one department concluded an investigation and determined that the "uncommanded discharge" really wasn't.

Some departments pushing back on the CJTC diversity hire director's action of "banning" the 320 after one cadet had an alleged uncommanded discharge at the range.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/...-ban/281-f366e039-9495-4b9f-bb9a-91eb0c9bc2aa

Read More

 

[GrayGoose]

It's Alec Baldwin's favorite pistol.
"I didn't pull the trigger, really I didn't."

 

[1775usmc]

P320 is hot garbage. Haha.

 

[Koda]

<quote> "I don't know if it went off in a holster," said another. The bullet did not strike or injure anyone.

Given the P320's controversy among police agencies, Kitsap County launched an investigation.

It determined that a loose "strand" from the deputy's handcuff swung into the trigger well of the deputy's holster during the struggle. That was "responsible for pulling the trigger" the final report a month later concluded. " <unquote>

 

[Old Dog]

P320 is hot garbage. Haha.

Ah, but your schtick is gettin' old...

 

[1775usmc]

<quote> "I don't know if it went off in a holster," said another. The bullet did not strike or injure anyone.

Given the P320's controversy among police agencies, Kitsap County launched an investigation.

It determined that a loose "strand" from the deputy's handcuff swung into the trigger well of the deputy's holster during the struggle. That was "responsible for pulling the trigger" the final report a month later concluded. " <unquote>

What is a loose "strand" from a handcuff? I would like to know.

And what kind of terrible holsters are they running?

 

[Stomper]

Drop-action is a feature not a fault!













In Moldova, maybe.

 

[1911Fanatic]

I imagine that there wouldn't be as much of a problem if the quit using Kydex holsters and attached lights in the holsters.

This is Glock Leg 2.0.

But honestly, they should just go back to Glocks. They;ve been around so long that all of the kinks have been worked out.

I had a buddy with a gen 1 Glock. With the slide locked back, you could squeeze the grip a little too hard and the slide would move forward. The Gen 1 mags sucked as well. But they are on Gen 5 now. I carry my Glock 19X IWB with no worries. However, the only gun I would trust to carry AWIB is a 1911. I hold my frank-n-beans, as well as my femoral artery, in high regard.

 

[spookshack]

Nevertheless, during a meeting last month with Sheriff John Gese, Kitsap County Commissioners approved up to $400,000 to transition to and train deputies on a new model of firearm.
"Frankly, we need to get it off our deputies' hips" one commissioner said.
"We want our deputies to have a safe, dependable weapon," said Sheriff Gese. "They've been watching this play out, too," he said of the growing publicity. "They know it was on KING 5 News."
Kitsap County taxpayers will funding new guns manufactured by Shadow Systems, plus training for all officers on overtime, which make up nearly $100,000 of the overall price.

So they decided to go with a Gucci Glock knock off instead of the real deal?

 

[WillametteWill]

I'm going to start by being kind of a bubblegum and say, if you are one of the Sig haters that can be bothered reading the fairly short article, please go to one of the other threads and barf all over it while making yourself look uninformed and closed minded. Let the adults talk for a while. You are of course welcome to stay if you read the information and disagree.

What is a loose "strand" from a handcuff? I would like to know.

And what kind of terrible holsters are they running?

Guessing the hooked part once ratcheted out of the frame. With the current design of many duty holsters now, I could see this part of the cuffs getting to a trigger.

Nevertheless, during a meeting last month with Sheriff John Gese, Kitsap County Commissioners approved up to $400,000 to transition to and train deputies on a new model of firearm.
"Frankly, we need to get it off our deputies' hips" one commissioner said.
"We want our deputies to have a safe, dependable weapon," said Sheriff Gese. "They've been watching this play out, too," he said of the growing publicity. "They know it was on KING 5 News."
Kitsap County taxpayers will funding new guns manufactured by Shadow Systems, plus training for all officers on overtime, which make up nearly $100,000 of the overall price.

So they decided to go with a Gucci Glock knock off instead of the real deal?

So let me rephrase:

We actually did some due diligence and found that the holster design allowed for another piece of equipment carried by the officer, to press the trigger and allow the gun to be fired as designed. So our answer is not to fix the holster, but replace the gun.​

Un-f'ing believeable. The stupid is beyond strong with topic.

But honestly, they should just go back to Glocks. They;ve been around so long that all of the kinks have been worked out.

And that would have solved this shooting or the recruit at the academy exactly how?????????????

ACADEMY ND:

From the article:

"Both the recruit and the instructor said the recruit's finger was not on the trigger."​

Really? I won't say the recruit is intentionally lying, but are we really going to believe him? This is not an uncommon occurrence, recruits' fingers on triggers while drawing and holstering. What really pisses me off, is that the instructor said this was the case too. Really? Look at the video and see where this instructor was standing. Behind the recruit and to his left (right handed shooter). X-ray vision on these instructors now? The other instructor to the right appears to be walking away from the area. The RSO was way back and to the left also.

They need to recreate these positions, and if it is found that the instructor who claims to KNOW the recruit's finger was not on the trigger at the time could not have seen this, they need to be FIRED immediately for lying. If I'm missing something with this, I'll gladly stand corrected.

Thanks for this thread @Old Dog

 

[1775usmc]

I'm going to start by being kind of a bubblegum and say, if you are one of the Sig haters that can be bothered reading the fairly short article, please go to one of the other threads and barf all over it while making yourself look uninformed and closed minded. Let the adults talk for a while. You are of course welcome to stay if you read the information and disagree.


Guessing the hooked part once ratcheted out of the frame. With the current design of many duty holsters now, I could see this part of the cuffs getting to a trigger.

So let me rephrase:

We actually did some due diligence and found that the holster design allowed for another piece of equipment carried by the officer, to press the trigger and allow the gun to be fired as designed. So our answer is not to fix the holster, but replace the gun.​

Un-f'ing believeable. The stupid is beyond strong with topic.


And that would have solved this shooting or the recruit at the academy exactly how?????????????

ACADEMY ND:

From the article:

"Both the recruit and the instructor said the recruit's finger was not on the trigger."​

Really? I won't say the recruit is intentionally lying, but are we really going to believe him? This is not an uncommon occurrence, recruits' fingers on triggers while drawing and holstering. What really pisses me off, is that the instructor said this was the case too. Really? Look at the video and see where this instructor was standing. Behind the recruit and to his left (right handed shooter). X-ray vision on these instructors now? The other instructor to the right appears to be walking away from the area. The RSO was way back and to the left also.

They need to recreate these positions, and if it is found that the instructor who claims to KNOW the recruit's finger was not on the trigger at the time could not have seen this, they need to be FIRED immediately for lying. If I'm missing something with this, I'll gladly stand corrected.

Thanks for this thread @Old Dog

I'll keep my opinions on SIG off to the side. And yea I read the article. But I do not see how the ratcheting portion of the hadcuff could access a trigger. I just pulled out a Glock and a set of cuffs no matter what angle I try I can't snake it down into the trigger guard. The space needed is huge. Maybe they meant something else. Maybe someone is lying. But I don't see how that is possible. If it was possible it would have more than likely been currently jammed in there when the officers initially stood up after the round went off.

I've been hands on while arresting people. So I understand that gear moves or even detaches from the belt. I've seen it happen. Things end up where they don't belong. But I call BS on the handcuffs. Maybe a handcuff key or something along those lines.

At the end of the day you have incompetence. In the field as well as incompetent pencil pushers cutting costs and leaving the guys on the ground with cheap unsafe gear. Whether that be the pistol itself of the holster it rides in.

Every cop should be fired for lying. It's kind of the job. Being ethical/moral/trustworthy and what not.

 

[1775usmc]

Nevertheless, during a meeting last month with Sheriff John Gese, Kitsap County Commissioners approved up to $400,000 to transition to and train deputies on a new model of firearm.
"Frankly, we need to get it off our deputies' hips" one commissioner said.
"We want our deputies to have a safe, dependable weapon," said Sheriff Gese. "They've been watching this play out, too," he said of the growing publicity. "They know it was on KING 5 News."
Kitsap County taxpayers will funding new guns manufactured by Shadow Systems, plus training for all officers on overtime, which make up nearly $100,000 of the overall price.

So they decided to go with a Gucci Glock knock off instead of the real deal?

Yea. That's dumb. The tax payers will front the bill. All they had to do was just stick to the standard. But everyone wants to be special nowadays. You gotta look cool when showing up to a call ya know… flexing on the poors. Haha.

 

[Koda]

But I do not see how the ratcheting portion of the hadcuff could access a trigger. I just pulled out a Glock and a set of cuffs no matter what angle I try I can't snake it down into the trigger guard. The space needed is huge.

Do police use other types of restraints, like large zip ties?

In another thread we discussed how the trigger area of plastic holsters is much larger if the gun has a WML, I recall a screenshot of an incidence holster proving this. Any officers here dont take this the wrong way but its been my observation that just because a particular item is chosen by a professional authority (this included military use) does not mean its a good or safe option, many times the decision makers are wrongly biased or just simply not gun enthusiast naturally (outside of their job). If I recall, any holster that doesn't fully protect the trigger area would be rejected in any IDPA match.

Over the years here a common question often asked is what holster should I get, and many times some of the suggestions I reel back at with glaring trigger gaps... often recommended by otherwise very experienced individuals. Often from higher end holster companies with a price to match.

In short, the holster is a critical component in this mystery.

 

[1775usmc]

Do police use other types of restraints, like large zip ties?

In another thread we discussed how the trigger area of plastic holsters is much larger if the gun has a WML, I recall a screenshot of an incidence holster proving this. Any officers here dont take this the wrong way but its been my observation that just because a particular item is chosen by a professional authority (this included military use) does not mean its a good or safe option, many times the decision makers are wrongly biased or just simply not gun enthusiast naturally (outside of their job). If I recall, any holster that doesn't fully protect the trigger area would be rejected in any IDPA match.

Over the years here a common question often asked is what holster should I get, and many times some of the suggestions I reel back at with glaring trigger gaps... often recommended by otherwise very experienced individuals. Often from higher end holster companies with a price to match.

In short, the holster is a critical component in this mystery.

Yea they have flexi cuffs but those aren't in common use on patrol. Although some officers carry them. They are more intended to for mass apprehensions. Basically big zip ties.

Unfortunately a lot of agencies will only allow you to use items that have been authorized by the agency. Some agencies allow you to choose your own as long as the agency approves it (normally smaller departments).

Personally if I was still a cop there is no way I would carry a P320 and if that was the only option I had I would find a different agency to work for.

A lot of it comes down to money and contracts. Lowest bidder. Ect. Whether it be LE or military.

 

[Koda]

A lot of it comes down to money and contracts. Lowest bidder. Ect. Whether it be LE or military.

Then that would just corroborate my theory that sometimes professional "authorities" are not always knowledgeable on proper gear choices. And after reading the OP article its clear that department leaders have as much of an invested interest in shifting the blame to something else to protect their reputation as the individual under their watch who had the ND does to keep their job.

Its a disgrace to taxpayers they will pay thousands to switch platforms when they determined themselves it wasn't Sigs fault. Someone is creating a false distraction from the real issue, bad choices made in a holster comes to mind.
But oh god heaven forbid anyone criticizes their level 3, WML, Taser holster all in on do all tacticool holster they proudly spent big money on.

 

[1775usmc]

Then that would just corroborate my theory that sometimes professional "authorities" are not always knowledgeable on proper gear choices. And after reading the OP article its clear that department leaders have as much of an invested interest in shifting the blame to something else to protect their reputation as the individual under their watch who had the ND does to keep their job.

Its a disgrace to taxpayers they will pay thousands to switch platforms when they determined themselves it wasn't Sigs fault. Someone is creating a false distraction from the real issue, bad choices made in a holster comes to mind.
But oh god heaven forbid anyone criticizes their level 3, WML, Taser holster all in on do all tacticool holster they proudly spent big money on.

They don't know that for sure.

If the P320 is safe, like their "investigation" determined it was…… Why not just invest in a new holster? Rather than new guns, new holsters, new mags, ect. If it is the holster than fix the holster. Although the government does love spending other people's money.

Guess what… They are gunna run the same "level 3, WML, Taser holster (TQ not taser) all in one do all tacticool holster." It will just be for a new platform.

 

[Koda]

They don't know that for sure.

I can only go by what that article said, they concluded it wasn't the guns fault yet they are switching guns. Someone is shifting the blame with a distraction.
Someone had a ND or something got inside a poorly designed holster, for sure as their words.

 

[peteNW503]

I'm going to start by being kind of a bubblegum and say, if you are one of the Sig haters that can be bothered reading the fairly short article, please go to one of the other threads and barf all over it while making yourself look uninformed and closed minded. Let the adults talk for a while. You are of course welcome to stay if you read the information and disagree.


Guessing the hooked part once ratcheted out of the frame. With the current design of many duty holsters now, I could see this part of the cuffs getting to a trigger.

So let me rephrase:

We actually did some due diligence and found that the holster design allowed for another piece of equipment carried by the officer, to press the trigger and allow the gun to be fired as designed. So our answer is not to fix the holster, but replace the gun.​

Un-f'ing believeable. The stupid is beyond strong with topic.


And that would have solved this shooting or the recruit at the academy exactly how?????????????

ACADEMY ND:

From the article:

"Both the recruit and the instructor said the recruit's finger was not on the trigger."​

Really? I won't say the recruit is intentionally lying, but are we really going to believe him? This is not an uncommon occurrence, recruits' fingers on triggers while drawing and holstering. What really pisses me off, is that the instructor said this was the case too. Really? Look at the video and see where this instructor was standing. Behind the recruit and to his left (right handed shooter). X-ray vision on these instructors now? The other instructor to the right appears to be walking away from the area. The RSO was way back and to the left also.

They need to recreate these positions, and if it is found that the instructor who claims to KNOW the recruit's finger was not on the trigger at the time could not have seen this, they need to be FIRED immediately for lying. If I'm missing something with this, I'll gladly stand corrected.

Thanks for this thread @Old Dog

Everybody knows they are faulty. It's crazy that people can justify owning them by calling everybody a " Sig " hater. When the reality is they just don't like the P320 platform or agree with the way Sig carries themselves as a company but probably own or have spent thousands in other Sig products. I don't like the p320 I feel like this is beating a dead horse at this point. People are going to have their own personal opinion. If you choose to carry it then carry it and leave it at that. The problem is people are insecure and feel attacked. If you're carrying it clearly you have made your decision. Everybody that decides not to carry should be given the same respect as the person that decides to carry it.

 

[1775usmc]

I can only go by what that article said, they concluded it wasn't the guns fault yet they are switching guns. Someone is shifting the blame with a distraction.
Someone had a ND or something got inside a poorly designed holster, for sure as their words.

Maybe.

I don't believe everything someone tells me though. Especially when it comes to any form of government.

Now if there explanation of the handcuff "strand" is true then re-create it. Same holster. Same handcuff pouch location, same officer. Hell twist and contort her body and try and make that "strand" insert through the side of the holster with a dummy round in the chamber.

If I have to recreate a "un-commanded" discharge to have proof the P320 is unsafe, then the street goes both ways in a scenario like this. Especially one that is on video. Recreate the situation and physically manipulate all the elements and recreate the discharge. Every element you need to recreate it is available. Do it and prove that it's a possibility. Remove all doubt. Hell if someone has a P320 and that holster and can post photos with a set of handcuffs that would be greatly appreciated. I would actually love to see it (at which point I would have no problem saying that it was a high probability of what happened here). All the "investigating agency" has to do is take the P320 in the duty holster and slide the ratcheting portion of the handcuffs and slide it into the trigger (if possible). Boom. Proof.

You can't just say it's safe cause we "think" this is the culprit. Prove it. You have everything to do so and clear the P320 in this specific scenario.

 

[Koda]

Maybe.

I don't believe everything someone tells me though. Especially when it comes to any form of government.

Now if there explanation of the handcuff "strand" is true then re-create it. Same holster. Same handcuff pouch location, same officer. Hell twist and contort her body and try and make that "strand" insert through the side of the holster with a dummy round in the chamber.

If I have to recreate a "un-commanded" discharge to have proof the P320 is unsafe, then the street goes both ways in a scenario like this. Especially one that is on video. Recreate the situation and physically manipulate all the elements and recreate the discharge. Every element you need to recreate it is available. Do it and prove that it's a possibility. Remove all doubt. Hell if someone has a P320 and that holster and can post photos with a set of handcuffs that would be greatly appreciated. I would actually love to see it (at which point I would have no problem saying that it was a high probability of what happened here). All the "investigating agency" has to do is take the P320 in the duty holster and slide the ratcheting portion of the handcuffs and slide it into the trigger (if possible). Boom. Proof.

You can't just say it's safe cause we "think" this is the culprit. Prove it. You have everything to do so and clear the P320 in this specific scenario.

View attachment 2066125 View attachment 2066127

Thank you for admitting the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Been over 2 years now and nobody has replicated the UD.