Shotshell Loading Without A Press

[oremike]

You might try adding shot buffer, I've not used it but I'm thinking if Federal does there might be a reason why. The other is to use a modified choke tube. One question, does the factory loads have the same number of pellets as your loads?

 

[awshoot]

You might try adding shot buffer, I've not used it but I'm thinking if Federal does there might be a reason why. The other is to use a modified choke tube. One question, does the factory loads have the same number of pellets as your loads?

Yes -- I chose 20 pellets figuring I should try plagiarizing Federal as much as possible. I've read that buffer can help pattern size by reducing damage to the shot but can also increase pressure. I haven't taken one of the Federal shells apart, but I will say that the shot I have (Remmington Field Grade) visually appears to be somewhat inconsistently sized, and when I weigh out 20 pellets, I get about 10gr variation.

I think I'll try the buffer since I still have approximately 24 pounds of shot rather try to hunt down other shot.

As for the choke, I'd like to get my load shooting close to what Federal can do, both with cylinder, and then test out the effect with different chokes.

 

[awshoot]

Today I ordered buffer.

I also woke up with my hand all clawed up due to a lifetime of abuse and the recent gripping of the shells while I roll crimped. Figured it was time to make a shell clamp, so I raced through a design, cut some of the parts, realized my original all-plywood design wouldn't work because the plywood doesn't grip the shells enough and they spin when the RTO is applied. So I made a midcourse change and cut one of the clamp "jaws" out of some scrap aluminum -- I figure it sorta sticks to steel so I thought it might grip better than plywood and Indeed it did. It works well enough that I'm not going to do a v2 (I had been thinking about spring loading half the clamp but it's easy enough as is).



It mounts to the plate on my drill press. It is centered by inserting a rod into the chuck and down through the center through-hole in the base -- that hole is centered inside a depression the diameter and thickness of a shell rim. The clamp sides are the smaller diameter of the shell itself -- this keeps the rim from getting mangled because the jaws slip over top of the rim. Once it's centered, it gets bolted tight to the drill press plate and then the rod can be pulled out the bottom and the RTO installed in the chuck.



Normally I'd use both hands, left hand on the clamp lever and right on the drill, but for this video I had to also hold the camera so it's a little clumsy. In my tests, I bring the RTO down till it makes contact and centers the shell mouth, then with my left hand operate the clamp lever, and then depress the drill. But I can't do that and hold a camera but this gives the idea. I don't have a youtube account so I posted the video Imgur, where no account is needed:

https://imgur.com/a/qWVVVjC

EDIT: nice Imgur stuff plays automatically here. I deleted the audio so hearing nothing is normal -- it's just drill press noise.

 

[oremike]

That looks like it works awesome!

 

[awshoot]

I took apart one of my Federal shells -- I should have done it sooner than trying to cherish them:

• 20 pellets: 465.2 gr. (1.063314 oz)
• Buffer: 26.3 gr. (+ a little, I did lose a few granules but not much)
• Paper wad, calipers read 0.139" thick (over gas seal).
• Plastic gas seal 0.304" thick (over powder).
• 26.8 gr. powder of unknown type

I was surprised the pellets weighed so much. The sack I have weighs approx 400 gr. per 20 and is identified as Remington Field Grade #3 buck.

Measurements of five random Federal #3 Buck:
0.2565, 0.2565, 0.2540, 0.2520, 0.2475: avg: 0.2533

Measurements of five random Remington Field Grade #3 Buck:
0.2340, 0.2380, 0.2315, 0.2315, 0.2380: avg: 0.2346

In my reading #3 is supposed to be 0.25 and #4 is supposed to be 0.24. It appears my shot is a bit undersized (even for #4 let alone #3) which would explain why I had such trouble trying to stack it and eventually gave up on that task -- my reading suggests you can stack #3 but may as well pour #4. It takes about 23 of my pellets to closely mirror Federal's weight.

I read in a 2005 internet post (so this is 100% ironclad proof, lol) that the same company that owns Federal owns Alliant. The only published Alliant recipe to come close to 26.8 gr of powder are a handful of 1oz recipes calling for Blue Dot in the 23.0 to 23.5 grain range with a book velocity of 1250 FPS. It is interesting to me that in a powder burn chart, Alliant Blue Dot is #51 and Hodgon Longshot is #54.

I'm not taking this Alliant info as load data for Longshot - don't even know if Federal used Blue Dot or some proprietary non-commercially available mix -- but I do find it interesting and it gives me some comfort when I think about working up a load with a full ounce of my shot with buffer, a 1/4" gas seal over powder, and one or two 1/8" cardboard wad(s) over the gas seal. I figure I'll start at 16 gr. again and work up to about 1150 FPS.

 

[Knebel]

If you have anything 12Ga. Try 19grn of greendot, FS12 wad/gas seal and 10 pellets of 000 buck! I'd like to load some slugs but cant find any components!?

 

[awshoot]

If you have anything 12Ga. Try 19grn of greendot, FS12 wad/gas seal and 10 pellets of 000 buck! I'd like to load some slugs but cant find any components!?

LOL -- if I had 12 ga I woulda just bought 20 boxes and called it good -- at least when I started down this road, 12 ga buck could be had at my LGS.

Here are some slugs -- I don't know a thing about whether the price is good, but these are in stock (about a buck each):

Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products

 

[awshoot]

New experiments and new data.

First, I was thinking that the cupped wads I was using weren't helping because not all of the shot would fit in the cup and that perhaps the overflow was being thrown off target by the cup behind it. So I made a few tests using gas seals.

The gas seals I have are labeled "B&P Gas Seal Wads TUWGS20" by Precision Reloading. They are 1/4". Over those I placed three 1/8" paper wads for spacing purposes. Where buffer is noted, I used Ballistic Products #47.

I also wanted to use about an ounce of shot, so these shells have 23 pellets, except for the one noted where I used 22. For all these I dropped back on my powder to avoid overpressure. Cylinder choke. Target at 15 paces.

Longshot	Pellets	Buffer	FPS	On Target (14" sq)
15 gr	23	none	881	22 (whole paper)
15 gr	23	none	925	18 (whole paper)
16 gr	23	none	995	23 (whole paper)
15 gr	22	32.5 gr	974	22 (9" pattern)
15 gr	23	Not Measured	943	23 (7.5" pattern)

The buffered shot patterns look like my commercial Federal patterns, maybe better but I'd have to grab my phone to check and I'm too lazy to walk into the house. Anyway, the unbuffered reloads spread out much more than the buffered loads so I'm definitely going to be working up buffered shot loads. Using a gas seal spreads out less than with an overfilled cup like in my previous tests, but buffering is making a big difference beyond that. I also think I'm going to go with 22 pellets over 23 for the slight velocity edge.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Didn't read the whole thread but BPI has some awesome manuals for some specialty stuff..

Shotshell Reloading Manuals and Data : Ballistic Prodcuts

 

[awshoot]

Didn't read the whole thread but BPI has some awesome manuals for some specialty stuff..

Shotshell Reloading Manuals and Data : Ballistic Prodcuts

I bought their buckshot manual which provided good general reading info but was pretty thin on 20 gauge recipes. I also have the Lyman shotshell manual and I've perused Hodgon's online data. Unfortunately with so much stuff being sold-out, I haven't found it possible to get the exact components so I'm just working with what I have.

 

[oremike]

Unfortunately with so much stuff being sold-out, I haven't found it possible to get the exact components so I'm just working with what I have.

And that's the value of rolling you own.

 

[awshoot]

Today's tests:

Common variables:

• Hodgon Longshot powder
• 20 Gauge 2.75" Fiochi pre-primed hulls
• gas seal 1/4" (TUWGS20)
• three 1/8" nitro cards
• 22 pellets Remington Field Grade (bag marked #3 Buck but measure like #4 buck)
• 24 gr. #47 buffer
• two overshot cards
• Target at 15 paces.
• Cylinder choke

I guess I was being too conservative and today I wish I had gone to 19 gr after seeing these results. I'm concerned about A1 -- it's velocity is so different I wonder if I mis-measured (I'm using a digital scale manually and I wonder if I went to 15.0 for A1 rather than 15.5 -- it's just weirdly low -- advantage of a balance beam over digital is the balance doesn't require you to remember anything). For A series, I've also averaged just A2 & 3 in ( ).

Mark	Powder gr.	Shot gr.	COLA	Velocity FPS	Spread Inches
A1	15.5	441.8	2.5200	956	10.7
A2	15.5	444.9	2.5175	1009	10.7
A3	15.5	447.3	2.5140	1008	9.1
AVGs		446.3 (448.6)	2.517 (2.516)	990 (1009)	10.2 (9.9)
B1	16.0	444.5	2.5315	1012	9.7
B2	16.0	442.3	2.5210	1022	9.1
B3	16.0	442.2	2.5295	1015	11.0
AVGs		443.0	2.527	1016	9.9
C1	16.5	444.3	2.5265	1056	14.4
C2	16.5	442.0	2.5255	1050	12.4
C3	16.5	442.6	2.5360	1041	13.6
AVGs		443.0	2.542	1049	13.5

 

[awshoot]

Another test, same as above but I upped the buffer to 27.5 gr. to try to get a tighter packing. I only made two of each series:

Mark	Poweder gr.	Shot gr.	COLA	Velocity FPS	Spread Inches
A1	17.0	440.9	2.5285	1075	17.5
A2	17.0	441.6	2.5360	1065	12.3
B1	17.5	441.4	2.5375	1076	13.7
B2	17.5	442.2	2.5455	1083	11.5
C1	18.0	444.9	2.5380	1091	12.0
C2	18.0	442.4	2.5385	1147	11.3
D1	18.5	443.9	2.5425	1149	13.0
D2	18.5	446.6	2.5505	1128	18.3

Observations:

The big difference in spread shown in series A and D, and the large velocity difference in C bothers me. I'm thinking that I might not be evenly compressing the powder and wads. The Lyman book suggests a pressure of "20 to 40 pounds" -- I assume pounds of force as in PSI. I think I'm going to rig up a tool to apply an equal amount of compressive force to the powder and wad stack. Also thinking about replacing some of the cardboard wads with cork or felt to help control deformation of the shot perhaps. There is also the issue that my bag of shot is not super consistent in size so I may just be chasing ghosts trying to tighten this up, but it's worth a try.

 

[awshoot]

Next test. This time I used a downrigger ball (12 lb I think but I'll weigh it) and a hex bolt that fit inside the shell well to tamp the powder and patches -- not banging it, just letting the full weight rest on the stack. My hope was to improve shot to shot consistency with a measurably consistent compression technique, though think I may want to find something heavier to match the 20-40 pounds mentioned in the Lyman book. Still trying to do this without a press.

Another difference is that I used 27 gr. of buffer -- not for any specific reason, it's just what seemed to fit tonight which makes sense because as I'm digging down in the bag, the shot is noticeably heavier so I presume, bigger. I do think I packed it in a bit tight -- some of the shells look a little pimpled where the shot -- I'm going to back off on the buffer more.

Because of the compression (and increased shot weight), I decided to overlap the lowest powder weight this time with the highest from last time. I think standardizing compression helped -- aside from series C, I got some really consistent results.

Mark	Powder gr.	Shot gr.	COLA	FPS	Spread
A1	18.5	453.8	2.5485	1158	14.0
A2	18.5	455.7	2.5385	1162	12.5
A3	18.5	458.8	2.5410	1164	12.7
B1	19.0	453.2	2.5405	1182	12.6
B2	19.0	451.2	2.5415	1179	12.5
B3	19.0	452.3	2.5400	1178	14.3
C1	19.5	453.1	2.5425	err	18.0
C2	19.5	453.4	2.5560	1197	14.8
C3	19.5	450.4	2.5410	1213	15.5

I'm getting pretty happy with my roll crimp technique -- only two of these were not in the 2.54xx range and I have an idea to improve that.

At this point, I'm going to make a set of these, plus one more set at 20 gr. and send them off to Precision Reloading for pressure testing. If they come back OK, I think I'm probably going with a 19 gr. load. A ballistics calculator based on an average of 452.2 grains and 1180 FPS gives 1398 ft pounds, which is enough I feel without being punishing to the shooter. Once I have the load confirmed, then I'll start fooling around with the choke and maybe buy some fiber or felt wads to use in place of a nitro card (I've read that doing such with the wads doesn't really affect pressure).

 

[awshoot]

I packed up a set of shells for shipping to Precision Reloading today -- I'll take them to UPS on Monday to send off. I'm pretty interested in what I'll learn.

I made some tools for this project, first a loading block. I also made a holder for my downrigger weight for wad/powder compression. The contact surface has a 0.6" diameter which works out to 0.283 square inches. The weight is 8.38 pounds -- that works out to 29.6 PSI which is right in the middle of the Lyman manual's suggestion of 20 - 40 pounds of pressure (which I assumed to be PSI). I was designing a lever activated frame for the compression operation but it turned out that the the stopgap doohickey was easy to use as is.

 

[awshoot]

I finally got ahold of some Hornady #4 Buck. It is so much more consistent than the Remington Field Grade. I just weighed out 5 random servings of 22 pellets (in grains):
450.3, 450.3, 450.2, 449.3, 449.8

With the RFG, it probably takes me a minute of swapping out undersized and oversized pellets to get a somewhat consistent weight for loads -- a random serving of the RFG can vary by 10 grains. It's also labeled as #3 but it measures with calipers around #4 buck (less than and more than, although it's also not very round so measuring is somewhat meaningless).

 

[KKG]

I've been wanting to buy a few more 20 Gauge #3 or #4 buckshot rounds to have on hand for home defense purposes, but they're sold out everywhere on the planet. So I was thinking about making my own loads for that (legal advisability aside -- these would be for the zombie apocalypse after the 15 Federals I have are gone). I don't really have room on my bench for another press, though I could make it work. I'd like to make maybe 100 buckshot shotshells -- I don't shoot shotgun that much, I just want to have some on hand.

I'm thinking of doing something like this:

The roll crimp tool is about $25. Of course a Lee Load All is only another $25. I suspect that without the press, I need to use new shotshells because I wouldn't have a way to resize the base.

Anyway, for someone looking to make a small amount of shotshells and doesn't want to get several hundreds or more into equipment, would I be better off roll crimping or buying the cheap Lee press? I watched a video on the Lee's operation and it looks wobbly -- don't know if that really matters though.

Anyway, interested in what people who know their stuff with shotshells have to say.

You might want to take a look on eBay for a Lee Load All of one of their even more basic Lee Loader in 20ga.

 

[awshoot]

You might want to take a look on eBay for a Lee Load All of one of their even more basic Lee Loader in 20ga.

At the beginning I thought about getting a press but now it's become a game based on not using a press. ;-)

 

[KKG]

At the beginning I thought about getting a press but now it's become a game based on not using a press. ;-)

Well, you do whatever Trips Your Trigger. I ran the Juniors Program at my local range for 8years and did did most of the reloading for the Program on a couple of Lee Load All presses. I also used them(1-12ga. & 1-20ga.) to teach a number of them how to reload.

 

[awshoot]

I got the proof testing results back today. I think I made a good and safe load. Woot!

Common load elements:

20 Gauge

• New Fiochi 8mm brass 2.75" shells (untrimmed)
• Preprimed with F616 primer
• B&P Gas Seal over powder (Precision Reloading Part # TUWGS20)
• Three 1/8" nitro cards over gas seal (Precision Reloading Part # XY12520)
• Wad column seating pressure: 29.6 psi
• #3ish buckshot (*) 452.7 grains average (22 pellets)
• 25 grains Ballistic Products Buffer #47 (Ballistic Industries Item # MIX47)
• Two overshot cards (Precision Reloading Part # XY02820)
• Roll crimp
• Avg COLA: 2.56"

Powder: Hodgon Longshot, varied

Averages are for five shots:

Powder gr.	Velocity Avg	Vel SD	Vel ES	Pressure Avg PSI
19.0	1215	29	70	10030
19.5	1242	3	8	10576
20.0	1260	4	11	11498
20.5	1251	20	40	11788

For the 20.5 gr load, two shells exceeded 12000 psi (12160 and 12040) so I do think the 20.5 gr load is at the edge of safe published guidelines. All the others stayed below the 12k threshold. It's curious to me how the 19.0 & 20.5 gr load had so much variation to them -- maybe there's a pressure sweetspot or something like that. I don't know enough about shotshells though. Maybe I just screwed up.

Anyway, my zombie apocalypse buckshot loading session can commence -- I'm going with 20.0 gr. of powder.

(*) Remington Field Grade labeled #3 -- this is somewhat inconsistently sized shot and when measured with a caliper, it measures like #4 buck.

EDIT: I feel good about this. 7 weeks and 6 days starting from zero.
EDIT 2: I decicided on 19.8 gr in case my powder measure gives me an extra tenth, it keeps in my best range.