Same Bullet.......NOT. Now I'm Measuring Everything

[arrowshooter]

I have started from scratch on my .222 Rem loads because I recently shot my 7 year old mixed brass load into a ragged hole with my new rifle and now I am chasing that magic. The load is 50 gr Z-Max over H335 with a CCI 450 primer. The main difference between that and what I have work up for the new rifle is the 450 primer and and additional .020" to COAL. I am also going to test an additional .002" shoulder bump. Now for the drama:

I just received a Redding Comp Seating Die for the .222 since I like the one for my .223 so much. After setting it up I set a bullet, measured it (to the Ogive) and adjusted the mic .006". I then set a second bullet but instead of moving -.006 I had a +.010. I chased this .016" differential between OAL's around for the better part of an hour and decided it would be best to call Redding with a nicely put WTF? Mike (Redding) and I went over every detail on the phone during which time I swore my 50 gr Z-Max Bullets work just fine in my conventional RCBS Die. I/we concluded the since a Nosler bullet would drop through the die but the Z-Max would not, that maybe I should polish the inside of the sleeve a touch to help reduce the odds of the bullet binding in the die and we hung up. But, I was w-w-w-wrong about these Z-Max's.

It hit me after the phone call that since I only measured COAL when I loaded these way back when, I measured the OAL to the ogive and sure as heck I found some differences. I then started measuring the bullets to the ogive and up pops my .016" differential. The bullets would seat the same but one would be closer to the lands than the other. I'll be an SOB. They are now sorted by the two measurements.



Here are the two different bullets. You can see the difference in the shoulder but I marked them with the comparator to make it easier to see.



My practice has been, and will always be that I re-package bullets into larger quantities. Here is a good reason not to do that.

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[Stomper]

That's what happens when you're "shuckin' and ogiven"!

 

[orygun]

This is why I believe COAL isn't what one should be measuring. I started thinking this way back when still using lead tipped bullets, which can easily get deformed.
Picking a point on the bullet that will contact the lands will give one a lot more consistency than measuring to the tip of the bullet.

 

[Mikej]

This is why I believe COAL isn't what one should be measuring. I started thinking this way back when still using lead tipped bullets, which can easily get deformed.
Picking a point on the bullet that will contact the lands will give one a lot more consistency than measuring to the tip of the bullet.

This ^^. Unless you were using the exact bullet they did in the data. Make a dummy cartridge. No primer with a bullet seated obviously too long. "Plunk test", measure OAL, and seat a little deeper until it passes plunk test. Measure and you will have your bullet bearing surface to lands measurement +/- .002"-.003". I don't think it's a good idea to have your bullet into the lands. that may lead to some pressure spikes. At least that's how I figured out my OAL for different guns in 9mm.

 

[arrowshooter]

This ^^. Unless you were using the exact bullet they did in the data. Make a dummy cartridge. No primer with a bullet seated obviously too long. "Plunk test", measure OAL, and seat a little deeper until it passes plunk test. Measure and you will have your bullet bearing surface to lands measurement +/- .002"-.003". I don't think it's a good idea to have your bullet into the lands. that may lead to some pressure spikes. At least that's how I figured out my OAL for different guns in 9mm.

Eggzakly! I have all the Hornady setup for that , and its the only way that I roll now.

 

[orygun]

This ^^. Unless you were using the exact bullet they did in the data. Make a dummy cartridge. No primer with a bullet seated obviously too long. "Plunk test", measure OAL, and seat a little deeper until it passes plunk test. Measure and you will have your bullet bearing surface to lands measurement +/- .002"-.003". I don't think it's a good idea to have your bullet into the lands. that may lead to some pressure spikes. At least that's how I figured out my OAL for different guns in 9mm.

If you soot your bullet with a candle before doing this you will be able to tell where the lands are, cuz the bullet could be slightly engaged with the lands and still pass the "plunk test". This bullet would have passed the plunk test, but even in my crappy pic you can see the marks.

 

[gmerkt]

Are the bullets from the same batch, or two different batches? That wasn't clear to me.

 

[arrowshooter]

Are the bullets from the same batch, or two different batches? That wasn't clear to me.

The Z-Maxs? I'm gunna say no, I had dumped them all in one box some years back.

 

[gmerkt]

That might be a big part of your issue. Bullets from mixed lots. Next question:

Did you buy these as factory seconds?

If so, then you can't necessarily expect uniform ogive, not to the extent that you seek. That is one of the many reasons they may come across as seconds.

Serious shooters buy these things in lots of 500, 1000, 2000 of the same batch to ensure uniformity. To the extent that's possible, anyway. I don't consider myself in that category, I'm not a bench rest, long range, etc., shooter. More like a service grade shooter.

Z Max, that was a Hornady promotional bullet, as I recall, the Z being for "Zombie," it was a take-off of the V-Max with the red tip.

 

[Mikej]

If you soot your bullet with a candle before doing this you will be able to tell where the lands are, cuz the bullet could be slightly engaged with the lands and still pass the "plunk test". This bullet would have passed the plunk test, but even in my crappy pic you can see the marks.

View attachment 1914196

I was really speaking of only handgun rounds where it's easy to plunk test. But you're right about the rifle rounds and using soot. It's a great trick.

 

[orygun]

I was really speaking of only handgun rounds where it's easy to plunk test. But you're right about the rifle rounds and using soot. It's a great trick.

Since the OP was talking about rifle rounds, that's the track I stayed on.

 

[red442joe]

That's what happens when you're "shuckin' and ogiven"!

LOLz
I see what you did there!

Joe

 

[Cerberus Group]

I see this a lot with bullets even in the same lot #

If the bullet is shorter and/or a difference of diameter where the seater contacts the bullet, you'll have OAL differences all over the board.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I have started from scratch on my .222 Rem loads because I recently shot my 7 year old mixed brass load into a ragged hole..

So what's the problem?

 

[arrowshooter]

So what's the problem?

It's a few fold. The main reason is the initial loads I worked up were perfect in 36 degree weather, but when I was in the Rat Fields last May the primers were cratering like mad with a few black holes. So, she's not happy in the warmer weather. I also have a new Boyds Stock to replace the thumb hole stock that came on the gun, and a new scope with more zoomies. The big change in the loads will be the CCI 450 primers to battle the craters, but I am also going to mess with the head space because right now I am flush, and the OAL because of how the old loads shot. The 50 gr ladder will probably end up at or close to where I am now, but the 40 gr load will be down a couple grains because I don't need to run it at 3,700 FPS , and it black holed the most primers.

re: the Old Loads - In trying to replicate those exact loads is how I discovered the differential in the bullets. One is touching the lands and the other is in the lands .017". Now that I know this I can test both and go from there, but I am thinking I am going to start at .010 off. My newer load is .005 off.

 

[Certaindeaf]

It's a few fold. The main reason is the initial loads I worked up were perfect in 36 degree weather, but when I was in the Rat Fields last May the primers were cratering like mad with a few black holes. So, she's not happy in the warmer weather. I also have a new Boyds Stock to replace the thumb hole stock that came on the gun, and a new scope with more zoomies. The big change in the loads will be the CCI 450 primers to battle the craters, but I am also going to mess with the head space because right now I am flush, and the OAL because of how the old loads shot. The 50 gr ladder will probably end up at or close to where I am now, but the 40 gr load will be down a couple grains because I don't need to run it at 3,700 FPS , and it black holed the most primers.

re: the Old Loads - In trying to replicate those exact loads is how I discovered the differential in the bullets. One is touching the lands and the other is in the lands .017". Now that I know this I can test both and go from there, but I am thinking I am going to start at .010 off. My newer load is .005 off.

Well I reckon that happens and here we are. Did you try reducing it by a grain or so to see how those shoot or are you still in the measuring mode?

 

[arrowshooter]

Well I reckon that happens and here we are. Did you try reducing it by a grain or so to see how those shoot or are you still in the measuring mode?

I did with the 50's since that's the old load, but not the 40's yet. I will though now that I have that powder blended..

I just finished the "measuring mode" and am good. I did the "load long and jam it in the lands" thing and I am pretty much even. The line is where my comparator ended up.

 

[Stomper]

LOLz
I see what you did there!

Joe

Dang it, ya caught me!

 

[arrowshooter]

UPDATE: A lot going on here lol.



In order to cut to the chase I decided to ditch further efforts with the Z-Max and concentrate on the 50 gr V-Max. In the LADDER box is an abbreviated ladder since I am sure I will end up with the same load I have now for the V-Max and I want to be done before it gets too hot outside. I did set these back .002" off the lands. The three strings in the back of the box also have the shoulder bumped back .002" from my current .000" to see if they actually end up with my flush measurement.

In the JUMP TEST box are rounds I gleaned out of my remaining box from my May Sage Rat shoot that are .001" to .005" off the lands. It was interesting to see how my RCBS seating die is not nearly as consistent as the Redding Comp Seat Die I just got.

So what I am "shooting" for with all this besides the new scope and stock is to move those two shots on the right side of the group below back in with the other three. Hopefully

This is at 100 yards.


Same load at 200 yards with the one flyer out of 5:



Next up will be those pesky 40 grainers. They killed rats but relegated to inside 100.

 

[arrowshooter]

Update to above:

1) Had a couple of miscues.
2) 24 gr will still be my load.
3) The .002" shoulder bump will need to be investigated further.
4) The jump test shows this thing likes it at/in the lands. My chamber OAL is 1.751".
5) The 24 gr ladder load group almost mirrors the 1.749" OAL group even though
I did drop that one shot (or did I?).



What I found interesting was the FPS change as the OAL increased. I assume that this is the pressure
rising as the bullet starts closer to the lands. Coincidentally how the SD's increased also.



Now to come up with the next round plan:

1) Sticking with the 24 GR
2) 1/2 will be at 1.277" HS and the other 1.275" HS.
3) Increase the OAL starting at the 1.750" and going to 1.754".
This will add .001" touching and up to .003" into.

More to follow next week.