Rust all over my Mosins, gun noob, please help me save these rifles!

[Certaindeaf]

People, it seems he did about everything right to include oiling afterwards.
Did you fire your weapons using corrosive ammo with bayonets affixed?
This would be the only plausible explanation, along with not doing what you did, for them to all rust also.
Does someone also dwell in the basement? People expire a ton of moisture continually, exacerbating the moisture issue.
A few days ago, I was down in my closed basement and noticed some damp at a concrete floor/wall interface and as we know, it's been dry and hot here for a while.
It's like a meat locker down there and there's something called the "dew point" etc, etc. I opened it up and used a fan to draw some of the nice 90F air down there to help it breath/air out.
In the winter, we all use heat so the dew point is never reached anywhere in a house, save perhaps some uninsulated pipes.
You probably need to throw like a Goldenrod safe dehumidifier in your cabinet and it'll be good.

 

[trainsktg]

JV100
What a condecding bunch of poo. NO the cleaning compounds will not remove the salts unless they contain Ammonia. Un, you do know that Windex is mostly water with color and Ammonia added. Boiling water is used by huge numbers of mosin owners.

Ammonia does nothing to remove salt. Salt is removed by dissolving it into solution with water. (Stir up some table salt in a glass of water to test this.) The salt in this case is just Potassium Chloride.

Ammonia does have the property of removing copper deposits, which could be covering additional salts deposited into deep pores.

Keith

 

[Drame22]

They are stored in old school lockers, the kind you'd find at any high school. I have a few dozen desiccant packs in the lockers, but most are in the ammo cans themselves. The basement itself is cool and dry, not humid at all. At least, I don't feel humid, and since I hate even a little humidity, I think I could pick up on it. I do live in the same room, after all! But in regards to certaindeaf, should they not be stored in my room? Again in a pinch I can find some other storage site, but this is the only place I have so far that's an actual safe-like place to put them. What is a safe dehumidifier?

Keith I think I've scared myself enough with this botched cleaning that I check the rifles everyday.

I know about corrosive ammo, but the bore's are sparkling. The rusty powder is on the outside. Imagine if someone took a handful of sticky red powder, and then threw it all over your rifle. So the barrel is clean, it's the outside that's getting gross. And I don't know what could have caused that.

I've always been told to use boiling water, and it's the same method we used in my civil war reenacting to clean the rifle-muskets. Boiling water down the barrel, swish it around, let it dry and cool, and then run patches through until it's clean and dry. But maybe blued steel is different than regular steel.


Ah, I did let it run down the sides. I stripped the rifles all the way down, and then took the barrel to the sink because I don't have a funnel yet.

I wish I could get some pictures, but I only have a crappy phone camera. This rusty stuff is only on the metal, including the magazine.

train: I wasn't aware I had to worry about the rest of the gun in terms of cleaning. I did the same method to the magazine and bolt, but the rest I've left largely alone. Mostly because these are 'beater' rifles and I have to find the time to restore the wood anyways, so I didn't think it would be worth it to try and eek out a little more cosmo.

Also, certaindeaf, I did fire with bayonets fixed. I feel like an idiot for not realizing that ammo powder would be expelled from the muzzle(you know, like how every gun has ever worked forever).


On second thought, I think it may be the lockers. There were two rifles in the lockers, both have this rusty powder. There were also two rifles in my case that I hadn't bothered putting away yet. Why would lockers be humid? And how can I fix this? In a pinch I can store them all in my gun case, but I'd rather have a set place to store them, and more importantly, I chose the lockers because they lock, which means nobody but me can mess around with these rifles. Well, me and my little brother, but since he's Army, I trust him to care for guns


I'm going to read through all these posts(wasn't expecting such a rush!) and do some extra research. How quickly does rust spread? Should I be doing this right NOW or can it wait a few hours?



Cheers all, and I cannot thank you enough for helping me. You've saved a 90 and 75 year old rifle, respectively.
Drame

 

[trainsktg]

Hi Drame,

Yeah, you've got a humidity issue. Stick a low-wattage lightbulb in each locker that has guns, etc stored and you should be fine. Desiccants are good, but do not use Dri-Z-Air. In my experience, whatever vapors Dri-Z-Air gives off promotes rust.

Keith

 

[hermannr]

Let's look at the upside of this thin coating of rust, rather than the down side. Time to Parkerize or blue the weapon. Parkerizing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The light coat of rust will allow the phosphorous in the Parkerizing solution to hold better and do a better job and prevent further oxidation of the base metal.

 

[jjackffrost]

potassium chloride salt) You need a polar solvent. Most gun cleaners are not.
Windex will certainly remove it and the ammonia cuts copper and you need to remove the fine copper because the potassium chloride salt likes to hide under it. Cheap, effective, and simple household cleaner. The water in the cleaner removes the salt not the ammonia. Been using it for over 20 years on my guns and it works fine. nothing neutralizes a salt. It is the end product of chemical reactions.

 

[jjackffrost]

one of the best I have seen on this subject (From black eagle on the CMP forum) The flushing concept:

Once the concept of flushing away potassium chlorate primer residue is understood for being exactly that, flushing out and wiping off, then some evaluation of methods that will prove useful can be done.

Keep in mind there is the KCL salt residue itself and the accompanying problems of powder fouling and of copper fouling. Both of the extra problems help trap the corrosive salts.

Point 1: The potassium salts created by the primers are the end product of chemical reactions. They are not broken down and are not neutralized. That is why salt goes to the sea and stays there. Salts can be dissolved but do not chemically change.

Point 2: Water or water containing products dissolve potassium salts. Next to nothing else does. The potassium salts are not "neutralized", but simply dissolved for flushing out of the bore or for wiping off of the metal outside.

Point 3: Most modern bore cleaners contain no water and do a poor job of preparing potassium salts for flushing out. Modern bore cleaners can help dissolve powder fouling that helps release the salts to flush out. A different but related idea.

Point 4. Something to dissolve the potassium salts and something to break up powder/copper fouling works well in tandem to get the steel cleaned thoroughly.

Point 5. The now clean bore still has to be protected with an oil to prevent rusting.

For beginners, the most important thing is that they do not rely on modern bore cleaners for corrosive ammo. What they need to keep in mind is that Hoppe's #9 now has no, none, zero, nada, neutralization of corrosive potassium chloride salt capability. Whatever argueable ability it might have had years ago when the bottles were labeled as helpful and stunk to high heaven, it currently has no help at all in the mild smelling kind.

The actual action of Hoppe's is to partially wash out stuff from the barrel and break up powder fouling. Flushing out is different than chemical neutralization. With potassium salts, you can dissolve it, but it does not change form. Hoppe's without water does not dissolve it. It just partially flushes it out. Relying on Hoppe's is relying on very little help. Once cleaned Hoppe's cleaned bores usually rust a few weeks or months later.

USGI bore cleaner will dissolve and flush out corrosive salts in any of its many flavors and colors of performance based mixtures. The fluids were performance spec based items rather than a specific formula. The USGI bore cleaners are water based, dissolve corrosive salts, have a mild metal jacket fouling remover, and leave a water soluable oil in the bore when the water content dries out. You can actually watch the white milky kind dry and turn to a clear oil.

The result is a temporary coating of water soluble oil on the bore that offers some protection until a better oil can be used. Depending on which USGI bore cleaner is used, there is some very mild copper removal. The white milky kind produces a green/blue residue as it sits in the bore overnight.

Water based cleaners (Windex and such) may flush out corrosive salts fairly well, but don't actually chemically neutralize them. Windex simply dissolves the potassium cloride salts in the bore.

The ammonia in the water based solutions like Windex helps break up powder fouling releasing the trapped salts for flushing out. The ammonia also attacks copper deposits which also releases potassium salts for flushing out.

The potassium salts created by the primers are the end product of chemical reactions. As the end product chemical reaction, ammonia doesn't actually undo the KCL bonds. This is why the oceans are full of salt. It is the last product of chemical reactions and flows away with water. Windex just helps flush it out of the bore and helps dissolve it off of outside metal parts.

Windex and the various similiar water based cleaners leave nothing in the bore to protect it. There is no oil component in them of any sort.

Boiling water down a barrel is a long tested method to get rid of almost all corrosive salts because it flushes the potassium salts out of the bore very effectively. That should be followed by regular cleaning with powder fouling removers and jacket metal fouling removers and bore preservatives. Water works, expecially boiling soapy water, but in truth it is a mess because it is not just the bore that needs cleaned.

Using boiling water, cleaning the bore is easy with a short hose or tubing on a funnel, but the other parts of the rifle needing cleaned are not so easy. The entire bolt and bolt way, the trigger guard where you touch, and the muzzle all need cleaned. And lets not forget the entire gas system of a Garand.

Boiling water followed by three days cleaning with USGI bore cleaner is effective. All places corrosive salt bearing gasses can reach should be cleaned with USGI bore cleaner (outside of barrel, bolt face, bolt locking lug recesses, breech areas, and so on.) This is one reason USGI bore cleaner is so useful. You can scrub it into all sorts of places and then wipe it off without harm as it leaves a water soluable oil on the metal as the water content in the bore cleaner dries off the metal.

Boiling water also works so well partially because it expands the cracks in the steel and releases the salts from down inside the metal. Then it washes them away. It is also hot and drys the bore of liquid water.

For a one product system with the least work, USGI bore cleaner will work fine by itself. There are several different formulas and they are all water soluble oil compounds that dissolve and clean away potassium salts by flushing them out the muzzle. The white milky ones and the ones that are clearish smelling like benzene both operate the same way. They dissolve potassium chloride salt to be carried out of the bore. They also leave an oil coating as the water content evaporates off the metal. they have a mild effect on jacket fouling.

Good looking cans should be selected and the rusty, dented, leaking cans should be avoided as unknowns. Check every lid seal before buying.

It would be nice if some manufacturer marketed a modern equivalent of USGI bore cleaner. It is still being manufactured for the services as some weapons are corrosive primed in larger calibers. (As of Feb. 2010, I would guess most of that has been fired up in two wars, at least most all of the old M2 .50 Cal.)

There is a Birchwood-Casey product for cleaning blackpowder firearms but I am aware of no information concerning what it does to corrosive primer residue.

Keep in mind that corrosive salts are sufficiently hydroscopic (the ability to attract water) that they can pull water from the air right through oils and greases in the bore. Water is what causes iron alloys to rust. The oxygen in the water reacts with the iron particles forming iron oxide better known as rust. Salt attracts water causes rust. Oil and grease are not rust preventives when applied over corrosive salts.

Clean from the breech to muzzle where possible based on the firearm design. This pushes the salts out of the muzzle and away from the action system. Thoroughly clean gas systems if you must shoot the stuff in gas guns.


A Cleaning Plan That Works

My personal solution is simple and way easier than it sounds. It has never failed to protect a rifle fired with corrosive ammo:

a) Immediately after shooting, clean the bore, bolt, action and locking recess areas, muzzle areas, and other touched metal with USGI bore cleaner. Mauser's have the bolt dis-assembled because it is so easy. En fields have the head screwed off for cleaning the firing pin. Small size spiral wire brushes are dedicated to this corrosive ammo cleaning in my range kit. The kit has its own rod, brushes, bristle brushes, patches, paper towels, tooth brushes and so on to take right to the range and not mix up with "clean" stuff used for non-corrosive ammo firearms.

b) Re-clean the bore and action day two and day three with USGI bore cleaner.

c) Clean the bore with Hoppe's #9 day four and day five and day six.

d) On day six, oil all the metal parts with a normal gun oil. Reclean the inside of the bolt. The Hoppe's stays in the bore for short term storage.

e) The rifle is always racked muzzle down to drain fluids out the muzzle into a cloth until stored.

Remember, with consistent good cleaning practices, corrosive ammo does no harm. Forget once, and you ruin a bore. Without good cleaning practices, corrosive ammo will ruin a bore overnight in the worst cases.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Good post, brother.

 

[Certaindeaf]

He says the bores are perfect and have no rust.. everything else has rust.
Everything needs a protective film of oil but you still have a moisture problem, IMO.

 

[xlsbob]

Is it too simple to wipe down the outside with an oiled rag after cleaning the bore?

 

[Medic!]

OK You asked. So here are some ideas.

I'm lazy. When I shoot corrosive ammo I pull the gun out of the stock if possible. Or with AK/AR's I stick the whole gun with stock, in my deep utility sink and run hot water down the barrel. I use dish soap on a bore brush on the barrel. I use dish soap on a toothbrush on the bolt and any other area I want cleaned. Like the piston tube on AK's. I rinse the whole gun with hot water from the sink. If you get the metal real hot it helps evaporate the water. With the bolt open I let the gun dry. Only then do I oil my gun. Then into the safe with a Eva Dry renewable dehumidifier.

I know there are many ways to clean. Just remember the salts from corrosive ammo is water soluble. Don't slap oil over the salt an expect to then clean it off later with water. That's why I use Dish soap. I want to remove any oil mixed or covering the salts. The oil prevents the water from reaching the salts needing to be removed. The oil will not however stop the salts from drawing moisture and rusting the metal.

Also after water/soap cleaning. I sometimes use WD40 to get water out of tight areas on certain guns. It's not a lubricant. It's a water displacer.
I let excess WD drain onto an old rag/towel. And use rag patches with small screwdrivers to mop out WD-40 left behind.

People have all kind of tricks. And I do things slightly different all the time. But the one thing I do with guns shooting corrosive ammo is always the same. Lots of water and soap! Remove oil and salts. Then dry my guns.
I worry more about the salts than the water I get on my guns. After all most of my gun has a thin layer of oil on it from previous cleaning. So only the area I wash with soap is really in jeopardy of rusting.

If you keep an eye on your guns a few days after using aggressive water cleaning. You will see any rust forming or other problems. Adjust your technique accordingly. But don't be afraid of using lots of hot soapy water to really clean the heck out of a gun! After all they survive being rained on in the field buy hunters all the time. Good luck.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Does anyone know if military bore cleaner dated 1975 is water based?

 

[Medic!]

Try to mix a small amount with some type of oil? Or water?

You didn't really think that one out did you?

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

If you even read the thread through, the posters were stating that the water in the GIBore Cleaner flushed the corrosive salts away and when it evaporated it left a protective oil film on the metal behind. My question was whether the 1975 formulation of bore cleaner still had military WWII formulation.

 

[Drame22]

Just a quick question gents, I'll have a more detailed post later on.


My dog, the lovable giant that he is, brought a ton, I mean a TON, of fleas into the house, and we're getting ready to flea bomb the entire thing. Will a flea bomb hurt the firearms in any way? They are 'sealed' in lockers but the lockers themselves have ventilation ports.


I just want to make sure before I do something that would cause more damage to these guns. Because at that point I'd have to turn myself in for crimes against history.

 

[nwo]

Just a quick question gents, I'll have a more detailed post later on.


My dog, the lovable giant that he is, brought a ton, I mean a TON, of fleas into the house, and we're getting ready to flea bomb the entire thing. Will a flea bomb hurt the firearms in any way? They are 'sealed' in lockers but the lockers themselves have ventilation ports.


I just want to make sure before I do something that would cause more damage to these guns. Because at that point I'd have to turn myself in for crimes against history.

It sure should not do any harm whatsoever. Flea bombs usually don't damage anything in the house except fleas, and other insects.

A friend of mine has fleas in her apartment ALL THE TIME. She BOMBS it constantly. Nothing has ever been damaged at all.

 

[Drame22]

Oh good. This is the first time I've dealt with fleas. Let your friend know, at least according to my research, cedar chips and lemon spray are very good at keeping fleas out once you've killed the initial generations. Just put the chips around the corners and doors/windows of the house, and spray the lemon/water mixture liberally(being careful not to stain things!) every week, and within a month you will have no fleas.

Again, that's academic. We'll see how effective it is in a day or two.


Until then, cheers!

 

[MarkAd]

Oh good. This is the first time I've dealt with fleas. Let your friend know, at least according to my research, cedar chips and lemon spray are very good at keeping fleas out once you've killed the initial generations. Just put the chips around the corners and doors/windows of the house, and spray the lemon/water mixture liberally(being careful not to stain things!) every week, and within a month you will have no fleas.

Again, that's academic. We'll see how effective it is in a day or two.


Until then, cheers!

Thats great for keeping fleas out but you have them inside, BOMB the wholed house Twice about a week apart. When you BOMB the first time bathe the dogg in a good flea shampoo while you are getting bombed. Last time I had a flea problem that is what it took to stop them in the house. And don't forget to treat your ENTIRE yard for fleas. They are nasty buggers.

 

[Certaindeaf]

In these rare dry times, use some diatomaceous earth to kill fleas etc. outside in the yard. It's safe, effective and cheap.. you can eat it if you want. Just sprinkle it around.

 

[revjen45]

I suggest you try Blue Wonder gun cleaner goo. It works well on rust. Directions are on the tube. And remember that if the M-N could survive use by troops who thought flush toilets were devices to clean and prep potatos for use (happened when they got to Germany) yours will probably survive your learning curve.