WTB OR RMAC-A22W-A Single Shot cap-ignition firearm

[tinkerbill]

RMAC-A22W-A made by Rocky Mountain Arms Corp. back in the 1970+ period.
This is kind of an odd one. I would describe it as a SwivelBreach-Loading SingleShot 22 Cal. Black Powder Rifle! Now, is that a mouth full? Take a second for it to sink in then read on......
This one needs a more defined explanation: This black powder single shot rifle is loaded at front of the turret breach, not from the muzzle of the barrel like a conventional muzzle loader. 5 grains of black powder is loaded into breach of turret then one #4 (.24) buck shot on top of powder. 180 degrees opposite where powder and ball was loaded is a spot where several childs caps (like used in cap guns) are loaded. The instructions recommended the use of Greeny Stick'em Caps for ignition but they are not made any more. Anyway a metal cap cover is then placed over the cap/s. This holds caps in place and assists in directing the small cap detonation towards powder. Now that both ends are attended, the turret is then twisted back in place so breach is in battery, inline with barrel and cap ignition is inline with hammer. Pull back hammer to cocked position, aim and fire! The back of the barrel had a slight taper from .24 down to .22 so when fired the bullet was swaged down to .22 The rifle itself was roughly the size of the Chipmunk .22, and almost too small for adolescents, let alone for adults. The turret was removable so you could give the barrel a good scrubbing from both ends, but the powder chamber in the turret wast a little hard to clean. This "cap gun" ignition system ignited even substitute powders well enough, probably due to the inline ignition. Bottom line? The danged thing was too slow to load thus not keeping the attention of children under the age of 10. The over all construction was a little shoddy, especially when true .22LR rifles cost less at the time it was introduced! If this rifle with it's unique ignition method was introduced today, especially with recent scarceness of 22LR ammo, I think it would have stood a much better chance of success, especially amongst the survival crowd. It was not perfect nor was it real accurate but one step up from air rifles at least in cost if compared to high end air rifles!

Read More

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I wish you good luck in finding one.
We built a .22 Muzzle loading rifle a while back using a old .22 rifle barrel.
About 6 grains of 2 or 3 F . We also used a brass rod for loading... Pretty neat rifle and not too difficult to build.
Andy

 

[tinkerbill]

Yes, I have built .22 black powder pistols using nipple and percussion caps for ignition. I would like to try the toy cap method of ignition. That is about as simple a rifle as one can get!

 

[tinkerbill]

I wish you good luck in finding one.
We built a .22 Muzzle loading rifle a while back using a old .22 rifle barrel.
About 6 grains of 2 or 3 F . We also used a brass rod for loading... Pretty neat rifle and not too difficult to build.
Andy

I'm guessing your powder ignition source for that rifle was the proven #11 percussion cap pushed onto a nipple designed for #11 caps? The source/s for #11 caps has been so spotty (and expensive). That is the main reason I wanted to perfect the toy cap ignition method. I'm pretty sure the fat "nipple" used in the AWAC A22W is slightly tapered but that is about all the info I can surmise from studying the pictures & drawings as I could not find specs even after several hard search sessions including patent searches. The inventor didn't want to give away too much info on how it was designed I guess. I could experiment but I just don't have the patience for it any more. Getting the specs shouldn't be this hard! It's not like I am trying to go into business. I just want to build one for my personal use.
As an aside: A person nicknamed sharpshooter sells the tools and supplies to make your own #11 percussion caps that can use a couple toy caps as ignition source or just buy his liquid priming compound, couple drops into cap, let completely dry, and you got a primed #11 percussion cap ready to be used! Sharpshooter even sells kits with all a person needs to reload 22LR shells except primer which can be purchased separately. Here is a link to his website Products
I bet if you had the right resizing dies you could even reload 17HMR and similar rim fire ammo and 17 caliber bullets can be bought! Good times!!
Update: I just found out that MidWayUSA sells bulk package of 5000 CCI #11 caps for roughly $239 plus shipping at CCI Percussion Caps #11 Mag Case of 5000 (5 Boxes of 1000) - MPN: 310 Not as rare as I thought but still pretty expensive at 5 or 6 cents a cap!
Update#2: 06/25/2020 With current prices for 22lr as low as 4 cents per it doesn't even make economic sense to buy the CCI percussion caps in bulk! If a person wanted to make their own ignition caps using the "Prime-All" product from SharpShooter's Prime-All you could have paper caps 10x as strong as toy caps at 1 cent per but again tedious work!

 

[Head Shot]

Erased

 

[tinkerbill]

Hello tinkerbill
I found a RMAC A22W black powder 22cal turret loader myself awhile back .
Pretty cool little black powder.
My experience with attempting to ignite the powder chg with todays paper caps was not good.
I even tried putting several paper caps but no joy.
Seems todays caps are really wimpy compared to the caps made back in the time the rifle was made or so ive been lead to believe.
I read where others mentioned a #11 percussion cap could be used but no way would it fit under the paper caps cover used on my a22w black powder rifle youd have to squish the cap paper thin to get it to fit under metal cap cover to be able to turn n lock into battery position which isn't really practical as I look at my rifles turret setup.
I actually gave up on the paper caps and was lucky enough to find and buy a new extra breech turret with cap so I have 2 that can be loaded and one shot then other twisted in to shoot 2nd quick follow up.
You mentioned accuracy wasn't much but I can easily head shoot rabbits at 25 yards but that's with a 38gr lyan 224 dia molded slug and 1 grain of DuPont or imr pb powder which is a listed loading at just over 1100 fps but 1 1/2 grain load is listed as max load and obviously faster but I load the 1 grain load myself.
Then again as I said I just had no luck with paper caps so I carefuly and theres plenty of room if you don't get careless to drill out the back of the breech just enough to set a small pistol or small rifle primer in place of the cap just deep enough for primer to set in hole drilled and metal cap cup on top twist into battery position with no primer slop but yet easily turned in and out of battery position.
Now obviously its got more than enough primer to ignite and it does everytime.
I still have the other turret breach untouched as factory and I also have since found and bought the 22 reloader kit with priming compound so yeah now I'm wondering if I could take a wimpy paper cap add the drop of primer let dry and see if that paper cap with 22 loaders primer mix added would be the answer to getting a good enough spark to ignite chg.
Just b4 u bring it up and you will I tried black powder too and even though its easier to ignite the paper caps I bought just wasn't up to the job as a mater of fact failed miserably at setting off any powder chg no matter what unless you stuck some black powder onto cap to boost caps ignition which was a pain as powder fell off caps if they weren't handled with not kids but baby gloves.
One thing you could do is grab every spent small rifle primer peen the fire pin dent out with puch fill with reloaders primer mix n let dry then use it that way which would be free primer containers from spent casings.
Heck shooting ramge pick up cases or find your local reloaders ask them to save old primers.
Looking forward to your or anothers reply.
Head Shot

Head Shot, Sounds like you have covered all the bases experimenting with this style rifle. If I may ask, where did you find the gun and how much was it? Also, could you post close ups of both the muzzle and cap ends of that turret & cap that fits the cap end? If I can get enough info, I might even make my own (or have it done by machine shop). Also if you ever think about selling it and/or factory turret, I would like to buy it? Tinkerbill

 

[Head Shot]

Erased

 

[tinkerbill]

Hello Tinkerbill
Pleased to hear from you.
Yes I tinkered a bit with the RMAC A22W turret breach loading black powder rifle but I'm not claiming I'm a professional go to for all answers but most I think I can at least give my opinion or experience I had.
How I came about getting the rifle was I was googling black powder 22s for kicks and giggles several years back and hey I really wasn't after one just heard some chat and started out of curiousity lookin around by google search.
I wasn't even looking for the rmac a22w rifle and didn't even know it existed till I stumbled on some postings about it.
But the bug got me I WANTED A RMAC A22W and went searching on computer for id say a couple of years before by golly i get a hit on ebay of auction with the receiver / fire pin / breech turret / and a cap lid and still had no complete rifle located so I took my chances knowing full well id never get a chance at a spare turret and cap with f pin and housing so I bid and won it for 60 with shipping if my memory is correct.
Then the black powder gods were on my side cuz oh maybe a month later I found a complete RMAC A22W rifle on gun broker and no one else bid on it so I got it for 150 plus 25 shipping I believe it was.
Ive had this little rifle now for id say 10 years and ive even looked occasionally to see if another came up and sold and yes a couple did and they sold 175 or less but not many come up for sale and id go as far as to say one in two years maybe and then youd better be on top of it.
I was fortunate one came up and I truly know I used all my luck up getting it.
Heres something youll appreciate .
The RMAC A22W rifle is so petite and so so light that you really do get the impression its a toy but feels dangerously potent at the same time.
I have personally sat in my deer stands in winter after deer seasons over and shot rabbits and squrreils with it and its a hell of a hoot to shoot and bag game with it.
I did go fffg black powder to begin with b4 switching over to pb and the black powder report with its little smoke trail is really sorta funny cuz it doesn't smoke like a 50 cal burning 100 grains its a puke trail for a few feet then gone but its really the cats um yeah.
As stated I didn't have any luck with todays paper caps and went small rifle primer so ignition is fantastic no issues what so ever.
Pictures you asked so youll receive.
I took several pics of different angles and even show a pic of 22 reloaders 22 cal mold that would work with the 25 gr slug but I haven't tried it yet but have done the lyman slug mold 225107 which molds a short 37 gr flat nose so its shorter that fits into the breech well and the users manual says use a #4 buck shot which I see is .240 diameter but no way in heck will a 4 buck fit my brech without smashing it in so I order from ballistics products .220 dia balls and patch them then slice the patch even off with a blade after loading in the breech turret and I have good luck with accuracy but the gun does like the lyman mold 225107 37 flat nose slug and accuracy is pretty good in my shooting.
I can easily put 5 in a qaurter at 25 yards with slugs and I really not sure on the 220 balls but id say 5 in oh maybe a half dollar at 25 so still good enough to shoulder or head shoot a rabbit if you do your part.
I even got a copy of the users manual that came with the RMAC A22W rifle from another fella with an original copy. (Pic #11)

6th pic down shows the turret in battery position and somewhere I was asked if the lever was pushed down on the side to unlock breech turret to turn and yes that's correct.

Pic 7 is showing the breech turret turned out of battery facing towards the side for loading ect or you can turn it further 180 degrees and lift it up and out to load or swap in an extra turret which I was lucky to have acquired for 2nd quick shot. Notice the prime hole is open and that's the factory hole its not enlarged.

Pic 8 is showing the rifle with the breech turret out and laying on table with its metal cap cover.

Pic 9 is showing both turrets out and on table next to rifle and there cap covers plus youll notice the silver unblued one is an extra breech turret and extra cap cover and the fire pins no fancy hard to make thing plus a extra receiver with everything needed to make it work. ( If I had a stock / trigger / barrel /hammer assy id have another complete rifle)

Pic 12 is showing the lyman mold slug 225107 that I use in my gun the slug pictured is not the mold.
the tray has 220 dia round balls and I an showing shooter reloaders22 cal heel mold that makes a 40 gr and a 25 gr slug.
Not sure the 40gr would fit breech as its round nosed and likely too long to set on chg without protruding breech turret so you wouldn't be able to turn it into battery position bt the 25gr slug youd have plenty of room plus with black powder being bulkier than my IMR PB powder it would give you even more room so its a canidate for the perfect slug but I myself have not shot any of them and probably wont cuz I found my joy and accuracy so its don't fix whats not broken in my mind with the load I'm shooting.

View attachment 458136 View attachment 458137 View attachment 458138 View attachment 458139 View attachment 458140 View attachment 458141 View attachment 458142 View attachment 458143 View attachment 458144 View attachment 458145
Pictures here they come.View attachment 458135 View attachment 458160 View attachment 458162

For the life of me I cannot make out the features of the primer end of that turret (with the exception of the tiny primer hole that passes through to the powder). That's pretty standard on all black powder firearms. If you are using a smart phone to take pictures it must be set on the lowest resolution? Any attempt at blowing up the picture to see it better, the pixel resolution spreads out still giving no discernible features. Perhaps you could set to maximum pixel resolution then take a couple pics of just the primer end of the factory end of the spare turret? If that is not possible then maybe you could describe it to me? Things like shallow concave area for original recommended "greeny stickem caps" (no longer made) or small concave flat tapered area for same. That's what I am guessing anyway. How big are the inside/outside diameters of the steel primer cover? If I could just get that info down I think I could engineer the rest of gun. The muzzle end of that turret looks to have a groove around the opening suggesting perhaps a o-ring was on there originally for better seal when in battery?
I agree using small primers is probably the best route but that adds at least .045 cents a shot does it not? That plus cost of bullet and powder must bump costs up to what, .08 to .10 per shot? That would pretty much match the cost of bulk 22LR I think. If you enjoy the uniqueness of the rifle then it does not matter the cost, if reasonable I guess.
Did you ever try the Ledgend brand roll caps? They are made in Germany and much better than China crap. I picked up a whole bunch at our local dollar store here in Gresham, OR. Can't beat 1200 shots for a buck or even doubled up, still 600 shots. Another route I thought about is the liquid primer that can be bought. It was sold as a way to re-prime 22 shells or even spent primers for bigger calibers. It's called "Prime-All" and ships as a couple fine powders for $20.

 

[Head Shot]

Erased

 

[tinkerbill]

Don't know what happened. I paused to answer a few medical questions from wife and when I came back the forum link had dropped. Anyway, they claim the package will let you load at least 1000 primes and has a shelf life of at least 20 years! The link to the Prime-All website storefront is SharpShooter's PrimeAll $19.95
compound While there, look at the video... for more info. I was wrong about the number of bags, it's 4 and is shipped that way because this stuff is way more reactive to shock than Tannerite so it's mixed in small batches just when needed! While you are there click on "products" to look at some other related tricky stuff. I especially like the punch die that will let you make your own outer tins for #11 primer caps. prime them, grab yer muzzle loader, and get to hunting!. Caps are made by punching through material like pop cans. Prime the caps with a drop of Prime-All liquid, let dry, and you are ready to rumble! Never again pay stupid high prices for #11 primer caps with this setup and forget worrying about availability, especially in times of crisis! A few photos attached for your viewing pleasure.
If you can cast your own bullets, make your own black powder, make your own #11 cap tins, add primer and your set up for fun and survival needs as well! Since I went to all this trouble to post this info to you, I might as well publish it in the proper open forum as well so others can enjoy !Google on these caps and you would think they are made of gold! Prices from $3.00 to over $30.00 if you can believe that! Their just caps folks! Got mine at The Dollar Store for... you guessed it, ONE dollar! (not always in stock however)

 

[tinkerbill]

Howdy Me Again

I don't have a smart phone and actually its an older phone that's just out of analog to digital so cam sucks for most part.
I did however come up with these specs for you on the breech and cap cover.
Breech is flat round stem with a #55 drill bit flash hole thru it for the paper caps.
The round stem on breech ill call it that cap sets on is round flat measuring .285 inches diameter and it sets up .125 inches or 1/8 inch tall off of the breech turret for height.
Total length of breech front to back is .975 inches .
The port up front of breech the powder and ball load into on my two breech turret measures .225 inches spot on ( I keep reading #4 Buck at .240 dia is used but not on my breech turrets it aint.) ( Also read where the American #4 buck was 240 dia but oh who I don't recall but for example ill say european #4 buck measured smaller so again ???? )
Also I read other places the #4 buck ball is forced into the bbl and swaged down to .200 dia bore of the gun and I'm going to agree half way with that statement I read because at the muzzle end of my rifle I do measure an honest .210 dia not .225 and thats not the rifling but the rifling high spot does hit .200 near as I can tell and I do feel comfy with caliper measurements I took. ( Sounds wrong and odd I know but that's what the bbl measures and its been mentioned by others besides myself sooo ????? )
But I sure cant see why a normal 22 lr barrel couldn't be used with 225 ball or slug and get good results in my opinion.
Ok the metal cap that sets on the breech caps stem measurers .380 inches across with inside dia of .295 inside dia and a height of .235 inches tall and depth of hole in cap is .120 inches deep.
I'm wanting extra cap covers and actually found a post a fellow claimed to have several likev 10 or more but when I asked about purchasing some as others did there was no return reply = yeah figures.
Also ran into another who claimed he worked at rmac and made the 22 cal rifle with him saying what do you need to know and others asked qestions but again no follow up replies he diasapperared just like one before.
I also just ran into a post where an individual did say he had one and would sell for reasonable price and no one asked in posts about it so I did even though post was only 4 months ago if he had it yet for sale thinking I might get you lined up on one but no post reply or email reply and the email I thinks good because it didn't bounce as undeliverable so hey here we go again no reply yet and gone like the others as usual.
I did read where another posted his wife worked at rmac during the period the A22W was made and that yes rmac did have plans on not just a 22 but a 32 and a 45 but that even though the 32 was listed in the catalog that it never got made and was not sold to the public.
Sounded to me anyway that the 22 was the only one that did get produced but failed sales and all was abandoned.
So unless someone else can say different that they got a 32 or 45 to prove otherwise I believe 22 only no other was produced.
Head Shot

Wow, you did me a great favor. I am surprised the paper cap stem sitting proud and it's cover are straight line measurements. The cap must fit on the stem pretty snug to not lose most of the prime explosion! I would have thought the stem and cap would have had a slight taper fit so when in battery it would be extra snug and gas tight! Go figure! I knew about the other calibers and prototypes were made but they mass produced the 22 to test the market. I think they did much better with their hand cannon line of pistols and such. Excuse me for writing a book on previous reply. I'm handicapped and pretty much have the internet as my sole entertainment although I get out some during more fair weather. I plan to hunt again some day. I'm working on a used 4 x 4 to carry me & supplies to favorable hunting locations. In past I had the best success by lots of study of game signs, camera traps, then setting up tree stand >8ft up @choke points. My primary weapon of choice was the compound bow set at 70lbs but now days I would be lucky to pull 45lb (which is minimum for large game) Requirements for actually getting a hunt tag were getting too restricted in Oregon for my taste so I quit after reaching 60 years old but I might try again now @70 years. I used to hunt via archery first then black powder if no tag filled. back then I occasionally got animals in both hunts! My best ever year I added a agri special hunt and harvested 3 deer in one season! You can see why I would be spoiled with the current wildlife management choices. Choices like no more hunting cougar with dogs & reintroduction of wolves. Cougars are so plentiful now I lost all my animals on my itty bitty farm of 2.7 rural acres. Cats, two dogs, goats, my whole flock of range chickens! I & wife when working outside have had them come within 10 feet! Not good. Wife won't work outside now unless I stand guard with gun.

 

[tinkerbill]

Just re-read your last post. Wow, you hold on to yesterdays tech longer than me! my longest was a Palm Centro I had for over 2 years. I always buy used phones. I retired from Sprint so used their wireless for many years but it got way too expensive, even with 18% employee discount! I always thought they should have provided them for free! Now I use a small pay-as-u-go wireless company reseller at www.usmobile.com and my monthly bill is just over $10+change/mo.

 

[Head Shot]

Erased

 

[tinkerbill]

I wish you good luck in finding one.
We built a .22 Muzzle loading rifle a while back using a old .22 rifle barrel.
About 6 grains of 2 or 3 F . We also used a brass rod for loading... Pretty neat rifle and not too difficult to build.
Andy

Andy, forgive me for responding again to a very old post but I wanted to give you and all members a update. Because any good response to this ad has been people who think of their little unique rifles like this as made of gold, I have moved on to better solutions to my needs. I currently am collecting pieces and parts to build a .17 black powder rifle mostly derived from pellet gun parts & such. For ignition I am still leaning towards toy caps but the system to deliver it will be by more common and traditional percussion nipple with homemade cap shells using a tool I bought recently very similar to the tap-o-cap that stopped production long ago. It was purchased for $50 (free shipping) at #11 Percussion Cap Maker I also bought a package of what they call Prime-all which when mixed provides the sensitive (like in primers and percussion caps) compound needed to prime these newly made #11 purcussion caps. I may or may not use it for that but get this, it is also good for re-priming any salvaged modern primers or even 22lr spent shells! I know you have already solved this problem by shooting flintlocks. This idea is just another take on self-reliance (which a lot of us can relate to this day and age when it comes to shooting for fun or hunting).

 

[Head Shot]

Erased

 

[tssea283]

I just recently came into possession of an RMAC A22W and am interested in selling it. In reading through this thread it appears they are very scarce, and from what I can find they were going for $150-$175 10 years ago.

 

[Head Shot]

Erased

 

[tinkerbill]

Hello tinkerbill
Yes I too bought the 11 cap maker and can verify it works quite well and with the primer mixture dripped in let dry the caps are very reliable .
Head Shot

Headshot,
A little update and FYI regarding usage and upkeep of that #11 cap maker. I found the pop can aluminum to be a little too high tensile for the cap maker. Almost 90% or higher punchings blew the center hole out on punchings using my tool. When you looked for the punching there was none. Found out it was pushed down to the bottom inside the tool. I made a small high-strength wire tool with a very small 90 degree hook on the business end that allowed me to clean out the multiple failed punchings. If you look down in your tool with a strong small flashlite you may find a bunch of aluminum trash in yours as well. I found the best blank aluminum stock that worked perfect for me was the top oval alum lids that Chipotle Mex Grill uses to cover their takeout meals. It measures .010 thickness and so far I have been able to make over 1500 cap blanks without extra expense using the lids I save when eating there. Please let me know if the experience with your tool is different (especially with pop tins)? Also, if you found another cheap foil source that worked for you?
Will