Poll: Reading Ellul's *Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes*

[RedCardinalSeven]

Is there any interest in doing a group reading of French sociologist-theologian Jacques Ellul's 1965 classic Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes?

By group reading I mean reading it together following a posted, common schedule over, say, 8-10 weeks. Folks could share their thoughts on the text here as they read it.

I've read a number of Ellul's essays over the years but none of his books so Propaganda would be my first. Over the past four years I think we've seen a major intensification in the widespread use of propaganda. A more thorough, formal understanding of it seems valuable at this time in our history.

Last year, the US Army War College published an essay on the book titled: "ELLUL'S 'PROPAGANDA': OVER FIFTY YEARS' WARNING, BUT ARE WE LISTENING? (DUSTY SHELVES)". The author, Jon Herrmann, writes: "An overlooked classic of information warfare/operations, disinformation, and fake news is Jacques Ellul's Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes (1965). Jacques Ellul was a French sociologist and philosopher who served as professor at the University of Bordeaux. Author of over 50 books and more than 1,000 articles, he was a renowned expert on propaganda and the effects of technology on society. His views now seem prescient in light of computational propaganda."

I've read some of Ellul's essays, a book on Ellul's work, and parts of his Propaganda. I think it's a serious mistake to think, as Herrmann seemingly does, that the book is mainly about external propaganda from hostile, foreign actors. It seems clear to me that Ellul's primary concern is propaganda produced internally for domestic consumption.

You can read the book online for free on the Internet Archive.

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[Flopsweat]

Will there also be a knitting thread?

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

Will there also be a knitting thread?

Sure, when do you plan to start it?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Will there also be a knitting thread?

Only if it results in garments that barely qualifies as "cover ups" for our wives, mistresses, and girlfriends..

Ps... never let the three meet all at once for those in monogamous relations

 

[Flopsweat]

Sure, when do you plan to start it?

I'll only do it if it's the intransitive "to grow together".

 

[mrblond]

should add this to the list as well

Rules for Radicals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

need to know how the other side is doing things

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

should add this to the list as well

Rules for Radicals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

need to know how the other side is doing things

Just to be clear, the purpose of reading Ellul isn't to do opposition research as we presumably would be doing when reading Alinsky or Edward Bernays' book Propaganda. Unlike Alinsky and Bernays, Ellul was a critic and staunch opponent of propaganda.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

Here's an excerpt from pp. 139-140 of Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes by Jacques Ellul:

Public opinion surveys always reveal that people have opinions even on the most complicated questions, except for a small minority (usually the most informed and those who have reflected most). The majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion: this gives them the feeling of participation. For this they need simple thoughts, elementary explanations, a key that will permit them to take a position, and even ready-made opinions.

As most people have the desire and at the same time the incapacity to participate, they are ready to accept a propaganda that will permit them to participate, and which hides their incapacity beneath explanations, judgments, and news, enabling them to satisfy their desire without eliminating their incompetence.

 

[Ruger Rich]

"usually the most informed and those who have reflected most" Who did the metrics on this and what method did they use? It comes across as an opinion to support a favorite contention.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

"usually the most informed and those who have reflected most" Who did the metrics on this and what method did they use? It comes across as an opinion to support a favorite contention.

You make a fair point and raise a good question that would be worth discussing among people who have already read or are currently reading the book together. The idea of the OP was to read and discuss the book as a whole, not focus on any particular point.

I have only recently started reading Ellul's book and so I can only say that it was not written for an exclusively academic audience but for an educated general audience. Consequently, he footnotes very few claims--including the one you have questioned--he makes in the book. It may be that somewhere else in the book he offers or cites evidence that addresses your concern or perhaps not. I don't know the answer. It's also possible that Ellul has written one or more published articles on the subject himself. Jacques Ellul: An Annotated Bibliography of Primary Works alone is over 200 pages long. Many, if not most, of his works have never been translated into English.

I will add that the idea that it's "usually the most informed and those who have reflected most" who don't express opinions "on the most complicated questions" seems to me intuitively true. That doesn't mean the most informed don't usually have or express opinions on complex subjects. It means they're more likely to not express an opinion on something outside the scope of their knowledge.

A 2019 Pew poll found 60% of Americans agreed "Gun laws should be MORE strict than they are today" while 28% agreed "Gun laws are about right" and 11% agreed "Gun laws should be LESS strict than they are today". In my anecdotal experience, it is implausible that most of the 60% who want stricter gun laws are well-informed on the relevant Constitutional, philosophical, political, and criminological issues. Moreover, 70% and 71%, respectively, "strongly" or "somewhat" favored "Banning assault-style weapons" and "Banning high-capacity ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 rounds". Yet, a 2020 Annenberg poll found that only 51% of Americans could name all three branches of the US government. I think this illustrates Ellul's larger point that the "majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion".

 

[NW Backpacker]

Over the past four years I think we've seen a major intensification in the widespread use of propaganda.

Can you elaborate on what you think you've seen? Are you referring to the lies about 45 spread by leftists/mainstream media/Hollywood/deep state/etc such as the Russia attempted coup using known false FISA warrants, the Ukraine attempted coup with a secret unknown "witness", calling him various slurs, and on and on and on. Or are you thinking of something else?

It seems clear to me that Ellul's primary concern is propaganda produced internally for domestic consumption.

It is not arguable: the biggest threat to the survival of the USA are false leftist beliefs spewed by those I mentioned above, plus by public schools. Public schools need to be abolished if they can't be fixed ASAP; since they will not be fixed - they need to be abolished - they are destroying the USA with propaganda, and may have already accomplished that task.

I have only recently started reading Ellul's book and so I can only say that it was not written for a exclusively academic audience but for an educated general audience.

Define "...an educated general audience."

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

Can you elaborate on what you think you've seen? Are you referring to the lies about 45 spread by leftists/mainstream media/Hollywood/deep state/etc such as the Russia attempted coup using known false FISA warrants, the Ukraine attempted coup with a secret unknown "witness", calling him various slurs, and on and on and on. Or are you thinking of something else?

I'm thinking of those issues plus others, including the highly dubious BLM and George Floyd narratives. Then there are the allegations of massive fraud in the 2020 presidential elections and, conversely, repeated assertions that allegations of electoral problems are "baseless" and there were no irregularities whatsoever.

Define "...an educated general audience."

Ellul was a sociologist and Propaganda is a sociological book but it wasn't written only or mainly for other sociologists. In my estimation, it was written for a non-specialist or lay audience who is capable of critical thinking and working through the complex sociological, historical, and philosophical matters he addresses in Propaganda. By "educated", I include the self-educated, but not people who don't have the interest or the basic ability to engage in abstract reasoning. The latter group includes many people who may be credentialed by the educational system but have never learned to question or think independently about such things as indoctrination and propaganda.

 

[shooter777]

Also watch the Yuri Bezmenov interview with G Edward Griffin to gain insight on modern propaganda...

 

[loadzz]

Only if we can read society of the spectacle next

 

[loadzz]

Also watch the Yuri Bezmenov interview with G Edward Griffin to gain insight on modern propaganda...

Yuri Bezmenov was kicked out of the KGB and Russian civil society as a whole for believing that Jews were behind every tiny inconvenience he experienced in life so I would take everything that charlatan says with a Boulder sized grain of salt.

 

[loadzz]

It is not arguable: the biggest threat to the survival of the USA are false leftist beliefs spewed by those I mentioned above, plus by public schools. Public schools need to be abolished if they can't be fixed ASAP; since they will not be fixed - they need to be abolished - they are destroying the USA with propaganda, and may have already accomplished that task.

Being the person on this forum who has most recently attended public school I can tell you that this is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All of my teachers were center right and we didn't learn a single thing about the less savory parts of American history.

public schools are killing america because all their water pipes are leaded. Not because of some insane conspiracy regarding a leftist cabal that wants to turn your son gay.

 

[Mikej]

Being the person on this forum who has most recently attended public school I can tell you that this is probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All of my teachers were center right and we didn't learn a single thing about the less savory parts of American history.

Were you taught in public school, in third grade, that you could be a boy or girl, no mater what sexual organs you were born with?

I absolutely love this...

I think this illustrates Ellul's larger point that the "majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion".

 

[loadzz]

Were you taught in public school, in third grade, that you could be a boy or girl, no mater what sexual organs you were born with?

I absolutely love this...

Nope, but I was being taught at the time that gay people exist and that what you choose to do with your sex life is your choice. Which was at the time considered to be the harbinger of America's doom.
you should try not caring about what people decide to do with their genitalia. It's a great state of mind to be in.

That said, did you know when you went to school you were being force fed communist propaganda? Because apparently at no point in the existence of public schooling has there ever been a point where people werent getting funneled the Mass Line. That is, if Joe McCarthy and the John Birch Society are to be believed.

 

[Flopsweat]

Nope, but I was being taught at the time that gay people exist and that what you choose to do with your sex life is your choice. Which was at the time considered to be the harbinger of America's doom.
you should try not caring about what people decide to do with their genitalia. It's a great state of mind to be in.

That said, did you know when you went to school you were being force fed communist propaganda? Because apparently at no point in the existence of public schooling has there ever been a point where people werent getting funneled the Mass Line. That is, if Joe McCarthy and the John Birch Society are to be believed.

Your school sounds pretty decent. You're aware that there are schools out there that teach Critical Race Theory, right? There are whole states that have made it a part of their curriculum.

 

[loadzz]

Your school sounds pretty decent. You're aware that there are schools out there that teach Critical Race Theory, right? There are whole states that have made it a part of their curriculum.

I guess my disconnect here is, why on earth should anyone care? Everything taught at that age is in on ear out the other. These kids care more about fortnite and roblox skins than they ever could about critical theory. As they age they will, like most people, come to realize that analyzing race without also analyzing class and history is a useless tool. This is just brain dead administrators trying to cover their behind. It's literally nothing. A few years from now some great new cultural terror will emerge and this will fade into the background radiation.