Question about load data for lead bullet compared to a jacketed bullet

[9mm guy]

As a rookie reloader, I am hoping you experienced guys can help. I've been reloading 9mm using Red Dot for 4.1 grains (load data I got from the Lee Handbook) and using Xtreme Bullets (full metal jacket bullets at 115 grains). Everything's been working great so far.

My question is if I substitute lead bullets (Missouri Bullets at 115 grains) for my current jacketed bullets, do I need to change my load data/the amount of powder that I'm using? Or is it OK to keep the same load data since both bullets are the same weight?

I've checked the Missouri Bullet Company's website and they do not provide any load data. They have a section where other people leave their own recommendations but I couldn't find anything relevant to me. I've Googled this subject, I've checked various forums, and load data websites with no luck so far.

I'm not looking to enter any competitions or looking for extreme accuracy. I basically shoot for practice and drills at a short distance (about 7 yards) at my range. And I know not to fire the lead bullets through a handgun with polygonal rifling; I'll be shooting these lead bullets through my Walther PPQ M2 which has traditional rifling. So my question isn't about any of that.

Thanks everyone in advance for all your answers. The firearm community have been extremely helpful whenever I've asked these kinds of questions and I'm grateful.

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[Certaindeaf]

Personally, IMHO, it shouldn't be a problem. All things being equal, lead bullets will yield slightly less pressures and higher velocities compared to jacketed.
There are lots of manuals and published data for lead bullets.. Lyman cast bullet manual comes to mind.. you can usually find it at Bi-Mart.
Check out Castboolits.com too. Don't let them make you think that loading lead in 9 is near impossible either.. it's the first cartridge (along with my cast bullets) I started with.. along with Red Dot.. about 40 years ago.
Good luck.

 

[Member 5605]

Go for it. Just match seating depth.

I interchange jacketed, plated and cast of the same weight and nose shape.

I also run the mid to low on the powder side so I can have more fun for less monies.

 

[ageingstudent]

You might end up rolling the powder back a tad. Lead bullets are kind of a different cat you might get some leading. Sometimes they take some fiddling I won't go into here to make them work right, but sometimes they shoot fine right out of the gate. Lyman cast bullets handbook would be a good choice if you are considering shooting lubed lead bullets, though most manuals have some lead data including Lee.

 

[MarkAd]

Reduce your charge by 20 percent and you will be fine.

 

[deadeye]

I would read this from their site.....Missouri Bullet Company (http://missouribullet.com/technical.php)

The 9mm 115 has an 18 brinell so do the math using your current load. The Extreme should have had an 18 brinell as well before copper plating.

You must have a different Lee book as my book and the data that came with the dies do not list a load for 115gr using red dot.

 

[9mm guy]

Thank you deadeye. I did not know about the BHN. But upon first reading, I don't quite understand it. I'll have to take a another closer look at this article. But since you understand it, if I can borrow your understanding of this; practically applied, are you saying that I need to decrease the amount of powder according to the BHN calculations, otherwise I'll be getting a lot of lead in my barrel? I'm sorry if this is a dumb question but I would appreciate any answer you have. Thanks.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i load lead the same as jacketed

 

[deadeye]

Thank you deadeye. I did not know about the BHN. But upon first reading, I don't quite understand it. I'll have to take a another closer look at this article. But since you understand it, if I can borrow your understanding of this; practically applied, are you saying that I need to decrease the amount of powder according to the BHN calculations, otherwise I'll be getting a lot of lead in my barrel? I'm sorry if this is a dumb question but I would appreciate any answer you have. Thanks.

As I do not have the Lee data that you have that would give the pressures I can not say.

 

[PaulB47]

Apparently (from my reading, FWIW) you want to match the hardness to your velocity, and there are formulas out there to do that. You can get leading not only from driving a soft bullet too fast, but also the reverse. My impression is that you are more likely to have not enough velocity because manufacturers lean toward hard bullets. But to be honest, working with lead has frustrated me enough that I usually end up just going back to jacketed! I suppose if you are shooting a lot, then it makes sense to figure it out. Fortunately getting lead out of a pistol barrel is no big deal if you have one of those Lewis Lead Removers, or whatever they are called.

 

[ditchtiger]

You guys serious???????
Don't tell anyone lead and jacketed use the same info!
Someone a whole lot smarter than us decided they have different powder charges.

 

[noylj]

1) use lead data for lead bullets and plated
2) x-treme are not FMJ, they are plated. FMJ are a different animal.
3) whenever you change bullets, rework the load. Pressure produced at a given charge weight varies with the bullet used (even at the same weight) by a small, but unknown amount).
So, if you are shooting a light load (not near max), you will "probably" be fine, but safety is better than trying to save time or components.

 

[ma96782]

If it were me.........

I'd look for published data on the specific combinations that I happen to be loading for. Then, just because a bullet happens to weigh the same, it doesn't mean that you can interchange the data and get the same results. Reloading manuals will usually caution that when starting with any "New Load," you should be starting low and work your way up.

BTW.....Red Dot is usually a shotgun powder. So, finding pistol data may be difficult.

For pistols.....
Lead bullets usually take less power when compared against a similar weight jacketed bullet. And, you usually don't want to have your lead bullets (assume a hard cast lead bullet) traveling faster than say 1000-1100 fps unless you are using an additional gas check.

Aloha, Mark

Play with this.....

Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading (http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol )

Alliant Powder - Page Unavailable (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx )

Load Data « Accurate Powders (http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/ )

 

[Certaindeaf]

Red Dot is a/the classic pistol powder, especially for lead.. as evidenced in loading manuals since what, 1930?
And as for 1100 being top speed for lead slugs without leading, that's not true at all. Heck, pure/swaged .22lr often goes 13/1400fps.

 

[noylj]

The world is full of myths about lead bullets. Reality and history never enters into it.
Also, because swaged bullets were once nearly pure lead, everyone thinks they still are.
Never let facts interfere with prejudice.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The world is full of myths about lead bullets. Reality and history never enters into it.
Also, because swaged bullets were once nearly pure lead, everyone thinks they still are.
Never let facts interfere with prejudice.

Swaged bullets are harder than a twinkie these days? Pray elaborate.
Swaged bullets are as hard/soft as they've ever been. Please try to swage an 18BHN slug for us.. or anything harder than pure lead.
It costs a lot of money to make swaged bullets. Back in the old days, as you might have alluded to, commercial lead bullets (everybody "hardcast their own since lead was invented) were essentially swaged.. and they worked perfectly.. for 9mm Luger etc. etc. And life was good.
No big deal.
These days, every swinging small dick company (you need to be licensed and insured) "commercially" casts and you might as well go hard.. it's cheap, fills the machines sharper and will resist manhandling from source to user.

 

[noylj]

Well, Hornady swaged bullets are 95/5-94/6. Precision Bullets states, on their web site, that "Precision Bullets are swaged with certified 6/2 lead alloy." This is 92/6/2, of course. Other manufacturers, if you ask them, will tell you what alloy they use.
From Corbin:
"...There are two main sources for lead cores. You can purchase a
spool of lead wire in the proper diameter, along with a core cutter,
and chop off accurately-measured lengths...
The second source is your own supply of scrap lead, the same as
you might use for bullet casting...
You probably wonder about the hardness of the lead: can you use
wheelweights, or casting alloys to swaging bullets? The answer depends
on the caliber, and the system of swaging you plan to use. In most
reloading press dies, you can't quite generate enough pressure to swage
any lead harder than about Brinnell Hardness 8 (or about 3 percent
antimony/lead alloy) before breaking either the die or the punch. But
in certain circumstances, you can even swage linotype alloys of
Brinnell Hardness 22. The Corbin Hydro-press can swage any alloy of
lead ever made, or even solid copper if you wish."
I think Corbin knows something about swaging lead, and I think the commercial manufactures have the pressed required.
Even the jacketed bullets today use a high antimony lead alloy and they are swaged.
I don't even shoot 18 BHN cast bullets and DID NOT say they were 18 BHN swaged bullets. Not that there couldn't be, just that there aren't.

 

[ma96782]

Back in the 80s I purchased Speer brand swaged lead bullets in 500 rd boxes. Their 148 gr HBWC were excellent for PPC. But their 158 gr LSWC weren't to my liking. They were just too soft.

I switched to whatever cast lead bullets I could find or make for plinking.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Steve M]

Changing bullets is like changing brass or primers, drop your charge down then work back up again. I've seen this agony about load data for jacketed/plated/lead all over and I think it is a bit blown out of proportion. Of course we want to use the best load data available, but when was the last time you heard someone advising not to use a set of load data because their primer or brass was different? Using a substitute bullet is no different so let's stop pretending like we all use the exact components listed in the load recipes. Just get as close as you can and start low.

I'm still working on 9mm loads, but my 124gr X-treme loads use Hornady FMJ load data, including seating depth. One load that Hornady said would give 1050FPS I chrono'd at 930FPS and my barrel is 1" shorter (Blue Dot really seems to miss that extra inch). I'm not a goober so I look for signs of high pressure. I'm also going to try a different powder.

My biggest complaint with lead load data is that it is often conservative on velocity (not pressure). For example, Hornady 9th edition load data for a 158gr SWC in 357 Magnum is a max of 950FPS. On the other hand Laser-Cast load data for their 158gr SWC is 1460 FPS and I'm currently hitting 1113 FPS using lead load data from Hornady 4th where the max they show is 1100FPS.

I suggest using the data from Lyman for their 120gr lead bullet (#356242). If you don't have their book you can get the 49th edition for a great price right now. Using Red Dot you should see a max velocity of 1140FPS with 3.9gr of powder. If instead you used Hornady 4th FMJ data you'd reach a max of about 1100 FPS with 4.1gr of powder. What ever you do, don't select 3.7gr of Red Dot then say you got that from the Hornady 4th edition FMJ load data, people will faint around here.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Changing bullets is like changing brass or primers, drop your charge down then work back up again. I've seen this agony about load data for jacketed/plated/lead all over and I think it is a bit blown out of proportion. Of course we want to use the best load data available, but when was the last time you heard someone advising not to use a set of load data because their primer or brass was different? Using a substitute bullet is no different so let's stop pretending like we all use the exact components listed in the load recipes. Just get as close as you can and start low.

I'm still working on 9mm loads, but my 124gr X-treme loads use Hornady FMJ load data, including seating depth. One load that Hornady said would give 1050FPS I chrono'd at 930FPS and my barrel is 1" shorter (Blue Dot really seems to miss that extra inch). I'm not a goober so I look for signs of high pressure. I'm also going to try a different powder.

My biggest complaint with lead load data is that it is often conservative on velocity (not pressure). For example, Hornady 9th edition load data for a 158gr SWC in 357 Magnum is a max of 950FPS. On the other hand Laser-Cast load data for their 158gr SWC is 1460 FPS and I'm currently hitting 1113 FPS using lead load data from Hornady 4th where the max they show is 1100FPS.

I suggest using the data from Lyman for their 120gr lead bullet (#356242). If you don't have their book you can get the 49th edition for a great price right now. Using Red Dot you should see a max velocity of 1140FPS with 3.9gr of powder. If instead you used Hornady 4th FMJ data you'd reach a max of about 1100 FPS with 4.1gr of powder. What ever you do, don't select 3.7gr of Red Dot then say you got that from the Hornady 4th edition FMJ load data, people will faint around here.

Lol, that's pretty funny about that .357 load.. here's some Red Dot 9mm data.. 158gr @960, standard pressure..
http://www.castpics.net/project2/CastDatalist.php?pageno=1&t=CastData&recperpage=ALL