Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Private party sales and state of residency... bet you "think" you know the answer

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Alaskashooter, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. Alaskashooter

    Alaskashooter Gladstone OR New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    O.K. guys, I probably wont follow up on this thread to heavily myself but feel free to discuss my discoveries. I posted a handgun in the classifieds here and indicated that i am more a resident of Alaska than Oregon but wanted to sell my gun "no paper" private sale here in Oregon. almost immediately, the members here started sending me messages about residency and transfer restrictions... and rightly so! i was firstly, totally unaware that the feds were butting into yet another aspect of my freedoms but more importantly, members here clearly look out for one another and i appreciate it very much.

    Now at first i was really pissed (at the Feds, not the members) that was followed by anxiety about selling my gun at all. I halted 2 sales on the uncertainty that i may be violating federal law, until i could fix it, side step it or comply with it. this was followed by determination to find out the exact information in hopes of a solution.

    So you guys have forced me to study and get clear on this issue and now i share what i can.

    I have what i think is great news on this issue! First the bad news is that members were generally correct: the Feds prohibit residents of separate states from transferring/selling privately owned handguns to each other without an FFL middle man. However...

    The good news is that the "federal/ATF" definition of "residency" is the requirement to be met for a person-to-person private sale of a firearm. I will post that definition here:

    27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS (178.21 example 2)

    Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

    ATF Rul. 80-21
    "State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

    (sorry to be redundant)

    Anyhow, as you can see, the origin of the person's ID is of zero lawful consequence, only that the person does maintain any sort of household/domicile and that they are physically present. In my case it is even more concrete in that i have been here a short while, intend on staying longer (months) and hold a full time job here in state along with renting.

    Lets spread the word that the "Oregon ID required" for a private sale is not actually correct, only "federal residency requirements" need be met to legally by/sell our private firearms! Woo-Hoo!

    P.S. FFL's PLEASE share this with your peers as much as possible to free up some of those private firearms... Unless you want to collect the $30-50 transfer fees involved, but i ran an FFL for about a year and frankly those transfer transactions were not worth the money hardly ever and really just done as bothers and favors, so i imagine that is sort of universal?

    Best all, happy shooting!!
     
  2. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    4,916
    Likes Received:
    5,869
    Thanks for the information.
     
  3. Unka-Boo

    Unka-Boo Milwaukie Active Member

    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    225
    Wow.....good luck with that.
     
  4. Unka-Boo

    Unka-Boo Milwaukie Active Member

    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    225
    I understand your position, it amazes me that such a simple concept is lost on so many. Do I think it's stupid? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact I have to follow the law as it's written.
     
  5. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    There's the law which must be satisfied and there are my personal rules which must be satisfied.

    Personal rules

    Buyer/Seller must be 21 even for a rifle

    Buyer/Seller must have Oregon ID stating 21 or over

    Buyer/Seller must answer in the affirmative that they can legally own a firearm ( this must be done through PM so I have a record)

    If Buyer/Seller shows up to a FTF transaction in a car with license plates other than Oregon the deal is off until I have proof of residence in addition to ODL (not sure how I would do this yet as it's never happened)

    If Buyer/Seller speaks about this being for anyone else or more than one person (aka their friend/brother/etc..) is involved in the deal I'll pass.. for the wife is OK if they are in the same household and meet the "can legally own a firearm" requirement ("For the girlfriend" I'll pass)
     
  6. dmwebb34

    dmwebb34 Bend, OR Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    12
    Just curious how you (or anyone) would handle an active duty service member? They are able to maintain out of state plates, DL, etc while living in Oregon. So in a FTF would you ask for military ID? If they had military ID would you then sell it to them?

    I'm glad that we are all so careful to who & how we are selling our firearms .... but IMHO in the case of military (w/ valid military ID) I might lean more toward the OPs reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  7. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    Personally, if they were military I would use due diligence to ensure they are within the legal requirement and of proper ID to do a deal, they being a member of the armed forces I would feel an obligation to take the extra steps necessary to make a legal deal happen.
     
  8. C&H

    C&H SW Portland Member

    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    3
    This is a fantastic idea, and I'll start doing this as well.
     
  9. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    936
    i have to agree with Trismn

    I am not a lawyer and this is just how i view it.

    I had a great trade offer from a dual stater but no oregon ID . the fact of the matter is there is technicalites of proving some ones residentcy . just because they own property in oregon does not mean at the time of the transaction they are residing in oregon for example a person lives in Vancouver owns a house in Medford comes into Portland to buy a gun well he is not a resident Now he happens be living in Medford at the time say comes down for a month to vacation or work then if
    i understand it correctly he can then drive to Portland buy a rifle then go back to Medford and eventually take it back to WA when he is done residing in OR
    so you see the Gray area. Need proof . Again how is the other person going to prove he is a Oregon resident at the time of the transaction sure he can bring bills or even title to a home but that does not prove that he is residing at the time of the transaction . So a Federal agent from WA can say he owns a house in oregon drives across the bridge and buys your Gun well your busted.

    I am not a lawyer but I believe as long as you see Government ID like a drivers license stating the residency you have done the best in your ability to insure that you have not doing anything Unlawful .
     
  10. saxon

    saxon springfield Active Member

    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    164
    if you come to oregon and you have a DL and want to buy a hand gun
    the "Lets spread the word that the "Oregon ID required" for a private sale is not actually correct," in not correct
    in fact to buy a hand gun you oregon id is what shows you live in oregon
     
  11. dmwebb34

    dmwebb34 Bend, OR Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    12
    Yep I'd agree. Assuming you mean a valid/current Government issued ID showing a Oregon address (residency) not necessarily an Oregon issued ID. I've seen lots of DLs where the address on the DL was an out of state addresses. :)
     
  12. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,089
    Likes Received:
    1,310
    Actually I prefer a paper copy and will be using THIS form.

    8 US Presidents have been NRA members
    80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

    Deen
    NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
    Washington Arms Collector member
    Arms Collectors of South West Washington member
     
  13. Alaskashooter

    Alaskashooter Gladstone OR New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi all,
    Just stopping back after closing my ad, cause the gun sold. Was curious about the membership thoughts. I see, most of you want to err on the side of caution and "go the extra mile" in a transaction to be perfectly legal and furthermore, perfectly safe. While i agree and commend anybody for doing so by their own volition, realize, i am not editorializing/theorizing on whether the law requires "same state ID"... I am actually cutting and pasting the law directly from the GCA and forwarding the exact ATF rule on the subject. The "absence" of the "same state ID" is clear as day.

    Now If FFL's (and even private people) want to set a business requirement of, same state ID, because they neither have the time nor resources nor the interest to pick a fight with the ATF...? that is a PERFECTLY REASONABLE avenue to take, i dont blame them one tiny bit! God Bless'm. However, in Alaska where im from (part of the year), overstepping authorities, piss us right the heck off! And we dont put up with it often.

    The FFL holder that i managed for, took the ATF field inspector 'to the woodshed' on more than one occasion about "making up" rules out of the blue, and never lost his license. He Forced them to site regs/rules anytime they stepped out or got demanding cause he hated abuses of authority (and really the existence of the ATF in general). To be fair, he was a part time law student also and had read every single rule/regulation the ATF had out at any one time.

    Anyhow, banter at will on the morality and prudence of checking state ID, just be fair and admit that its not in the law. There is precious little in the law laying out an affirmative responsibility on the part of a private seller to do any "investigation" of the buyer, though it is an admittedly good idea.

    I ask that we are just not so quick to personally expand the scope of laws that should not exist in the first place.

    Take care all :)
     
  14. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,654
    Likes Received:
    2,379
    As for the bill of sale that some people ask for, I look at it this way. You can have my legal name and you can have my phone number. The rest of my personal information is just that, personal. You may check to see that I have an ODL and perhaps even a CHL (as I would do so as well), but I will not share the numbers on either license with anyone. One bout with identity theft is enough. Just because I buy a gun from you or sell a gun to you doesn't mean I know you from Adam. I'm not in the habit of sharing my address with people who know I have guns unless there is no choice (see 4473 form).

    When I sell a gun, I ask to see an ODL (as I am an Oregon resident, despite spending several months per year in AK as well) and if people have one, a CHL as well. I consider this as a good faith effort to make sure the other individual is a resident of the state as well as a non-felon. After this, what a person does it beyond me...
     
  15. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,447
    Likes Received:
    7,707
    Mountainbear,how about just blocking the house number off when asked for ID?

    Alaskashooter,thanks for the info.

    I'm guessing that utility bills are good enough to show you "reside" at a given address?
    And I have seen many military guys buy guns around here.They need to bring in the papers showing they are stationed here in this state,and of course their IDs
    I won't even try to know what the papers are called.
     
  16. Unka-Boo

    Unka-Boo Milwaukie Active Member

    Messages:
    923
    Likes Received:
    225
    Granted , I took this from the DMV, but it would apply here:

    As a primary resident, you will have a state issued ID ( assuming you drive).

    Could I be wrong? Sure....but I"d rather err on the side of caution than try to explain that "some dood on the internet said it was OK".
     
  17. flash2pablo

    flash2pablo PNW Member

    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    5
    while in law school I had a friend who was in the same position, he lived in state during school and moved back to his original state during the summer. He was interested in buying some firearms, so I contacted the local ATF agent, after putting much of the same research together as the original poster. I specifically asked if state id was required and he confirmed it was not.
    Any seller should do due diligence when selling your firearms,but the federal law requires you to not knowingly sell to an ineligible individual. Key word is knowingly. I am with everyone else here that I will confirm with id residency and not a felon with chl if they have it. While I am happy with this it never guarantees the person is telling the truth or the ID is real.
    If someone is interested in a firearm I am selling I will listen to the story and make them prove it in order to ensure transaction is legal.
     
  18. flash2pablo

    flash2pablo PNW Member

    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    5
    You are wrong in this situation, you can look up and verify it on thr ATF's website they specifically have the example listed on their website. I have the links on my computer and will try and post it later.
    Residency for federal law is determined by federal law, domicile is determined by state law, as each state state has their own requirements for domicile.
     
  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,447
    Likes Received:
    7,707
    That's how Oregon sees it.And I believe Washington too.But A S is showing that the ATF does not see it the same as the states do.

     
  20. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    14
    +1.