Pistol reloading perspective - using bullet velocity as a standard across varying bullet grain & types

[Fez]

Hi folks, here's the skinny. I've got a bunch of different types of pistol boolits and for greater practice standardization it seems like trying to make them all as similar in felt recoil, etc would be beneficial. It seems that having a standardized max pressure across loads would be the best but I have no way of measuring that.

Would it make sense to try and adjust the recipes so that all the various boolits types, plated-fmj-jhp-etc, and their varying weights resulted in a standardized muzzle velocity per caliber? I'm thinking around 1000 fps to hopefully ensure good expansion of hollow point rounds. The ultimate goal is to make my practice rounds akin to my defensive rounds so my target practice is as effective as possible.

I know different boolits perform differently in accuracy per gun/per charge but being able to consistently hit a 6" target at 25 yards seems workable. 25 yards seems like it would be the absolute maximum distance you could hope to be in the legal scope of self-defense.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
Fez

Read More

 

[Cerberus Group]

A 1,000 fps for what caliber?

9mm, that's weak....45, that's smoking.

Also, HPs need a certain velocity window to perform as needed. So you'll need to know that window and test for it.

 

[41mag]

standardized muzzle velocity per caliber?

most of my pistol practice loads for the range are built on that very theory
whatever the recipe for a given caliber, I strive to make the fps work in my favor;

There are a host of variable regardless. Good luck.

 

[Fez]

A 1,000 fps for what caliber?

9mm, that's weak....45, that's smoking.

Also, HPs need a certain velocity window to perform as needed. So you'll need to know that window and test for it.

Thanks. Most of my sources have indicated 900 fps being the minimum for hp expansion to begin. 1000 fps seemed a good target to allow for low variations without getting excessive for high variations.

I'm trying to standardize velocities for .40SW, .38Spc, .357Mg and 9mm.

 

[Fez]

most of my pistol practice loads for the range are built on that very theory
whatever the recipe for a given caliber, I strive to make the fps work in my favor;

There are a host of variable regardless. Good luck.

Thanks 41! I'm glad I didn't posit an idea that only a noob or Fudd would suggest. What velocities have you been trying to standardize per caliber?

 

[Cerberus Group]

Thanks. Most of my sources have indicated 900 fps being the minimum for hp expansion to begin. 1000 fps seemed a good target to allow for low variations without getting excessive for high variations.

I'm trying to standardize velocities for .40SW, .38Spc, .357Mg and 9mm.

I'd question the sources, as one can not take a certain velocity and expect every HP to perform at their best, every one has a different design and that design is optimized for a certain velocity.

Too slow, and they won't expand...they act like a fmj. Too fast, they open up too fast and act like a parachute and don't get the penetration.

My experience is from working with the engineer who designed the Federal HST.

As always...go have fun

 

[41mag]

Edited: I retract any complex and erroneous information previously posted; Agree the Power Factor calculation is far simpler to use.

 

[Pepe-lepew]

You are better off using power factor calculation used in pistol competitions to ensure a minimum amount of recoil. It is basically a momentum calc. Ammo that has the same power factor will have a similar recoil feel. It is Muzzle x Velocity / 100. General power factors are about 130 for 9mm and 170 for 45 ACP. In 9mm a power factor of 125 give the following muzzle velocities for a given weight. Each will feel pretty close to each other in recoil.

115 gr 1085 fps
125 gr 1000 fps
147 gr 850 fps

 

[dangerranger60]

From a handgun at 0 to 25 yards 800 fps to 1100 fps are not going to change the poi very much at all. They are all going to hit a 6" target.
If I had a lot of mixed bullets I would group them by weight and create middle of the road loads for each weight group. And being practice loads I would not much care if the bullet expanded or not. [Its just poking a hole in paper or ringing steel.]
If I had a group of different bullets in the same weight I would load them in matching groups so that you are not having a changing OAL. [ Load all of one brand, re adjust the seating die, and run the next brand, etc...]
When I owned a cast bullet company I would always have over runs of different bullets. And this is how I used them up. DR

 

[Fez]

You are better off using power factor calculation used in pistol competitions to ensure a minimum amount of recoil. It is basically a momentum calc. Ammo that has the same power factor will have a similar recoil feel. It is Muzzle x Velocity / 100. General power factors are about 130 for 9mm and 170 for 45 ACP. In 9mm a power factor of 125 give the following muzzle velocities for a given weight. Each will feel pretty close to each other in recoil.

115 gr 1085 fps
125 gr 1000 fps
147 gr 850 fps

Thanks Pepe, that's awesome info. Cheers!

 

[Fez]

From a handgun at 0 to 25 yards 800 fps to 1100 fps are not going to change the poi very much at all. They are all going to hit a 6" target.
If I had a lot of mixed bullets I would group them by weight and create middle of the road loads for each weight group. And being practice loads I would not much care if the bullet expanded or not. [Its just poking a hole in paper or ringing steel.]
If I had a group of different bullets in the same weight I would load them in matching groups so that you are not having a changing OAL. [ Load all of one brand, re adjust the seating die, and run the next brand, etc...]
When I owned a cast bullet company I would always have over runs of different bullets. And this is how I used them up. DR

Thanks Danger! What was it like running a bullet factory? Did you have to make your own dies, etc? I would love to hear all about it.

 

[oremike]

There are too many varibules for me to quantify with just numbers like that. Different guns will shoot the same load differently, different powders even though generating the same numbers will feel and shoot differently. And on and on. I'd practice more marksmanship skills to achieve your goal of all shots regardless of ammo in a 6" or less group at 25 yards. As you shoot thru your bunch o' bullets you will find the "goldielocks" load(s) and once there you can concentrate on just makeing them.

 

[dangerranger60]

Thanks Danger! What was it like running a bullet factory? Did you have to make your own dies, etc? I would love to hear all about it.

It started as a fun side business. I was making and selling custom bullets for mostly obsolete guns. I was selling them at gunshows, so it paid me to travel. But then I got married and could not travel every weekend. So I transitioned to making bullets for rental and training venues. [ I did not load them , I just made the bullets.
In the early 90's when it looked like CA was going to restrict indoor ranges from using lead I sold out to a company in Las Vegas. They still provide most of the bullets for the rental ranges there.
My early bullets were hand casting molds, but the later production was a Roto Casting machine that had 5 molds that each had two cavity's.
That one would turn out some bullets! Each full revolution produced 10 bullets.
It was a great business for someone who is not good at being still. DR

 

[3MTA3]

If the goal is to standardize felt recoil, then velocities all have to be different, The recoil force is equal to the force of the bullet and gasses exiting the barrel. If the weight of the bullets were all the same, then the same velocity would give pretty much the same recoil energy, discounting differences in generated gas. For felt recoil to be the same the mass and geometry of the barrel in relation to the grip would also need to be the same,

I would expect that a bunch of different cartridges would include bullets of different calibers and weights. To get the recoil energy you need to adjust by the square of the velocity: E=(M*V^2)/2

For example, a 357 Magnum fires a 158 grain bullet at 1300 fps. For a 44 Magnum you are using 210 grain bullet. To have the same recoil energy, less gas, it would need to have a velocity of 1127 fps.

Again the pistols would need to have equal weight and barrel to grip geometry for felt recoil to be the same. To get what you are looking to achieve is not a simple task.

 

[ma96782]

Rrrrrright.......


Aloha, Mark

 

[Certaindeaf]

I wouldn't over think it. At least you're not "training" with a .22.

 

[Fez]

It started as a fun side business. I was making and selling custom bullets for mostly obsolete guns. I was selling them at gunshows, so it paid me to travel. But then I got married and could not travel every weekend. So I transitioned to making bullets for rental and training venues. [ I did not load them , I just made the bullets.
In the early 90's when it looked like CA was going to restrict indoor ranges from using lead I sold out to a company in Las Vegas. They still provide most of the bullets for the rental ranges there.
My early bullets were hand casting molds, but the later production was a Roto Casting machine that had 5 molds that each had two cavity's.
That one would turn out some bullets! Each full revolution produced 10 bullets.
It was a great business for someone who is not good at being still. DR

Wow, that's cool. Did you start the business from scratch or purchase one that was already started? Where did you source your lead?

 

[Fez]

If the goal is to standardize felt recoil, then velocities all have to be different, The recoil force is equal to the force of the bullet and gasses exiting the barrel. If the weight of the bullets were all the same, then the same velocity would give pretty much the same recoil energy, discounting differences in generated gas. For felt recoil to be the same the mass and geometry of the barrel in relation to the grip would also need to be the same,

I would expect that a bunch of different cartridges would include bullets of different calibers and weights. To get the recoil energy you need to adjust by the square of the velocity: E=(M*V^2)/2

For example, a 357 Magnum fires a 158 grain bullet at 1300 fps. For a 44 Magnum you are using 210 grain bullet. To have the same recoil energy, less gas, it would need to have a velocity of 1127 fps.

Again the pistols would need to have equal weight and barrel to grip geometry for felt recoil to be the same. To get what you are looking to achieve is not a simple task.

Thanks Eat! I was planning on standardizing per caliber as much as possible using 'reasonably close' bullet weights like 115-124gn in 9mm. I've got a bunch of 147gn 9mm that are going to have to be non-standard as 1000 fps with that weight would generate too much pressure I think.

Oremike is of course right about prioritizing practice first but I figure that if I'm making the bullets I might as well try to tune them in as well.

 

[Fez]

I wouldn't over think it. At least you're not "training" with a .22.

Lol. I hear ya Certain. Sadly for me over-thinking things is almost a career. -.-

 

[oremike]

Thanks Eat! I was planning on standardizing per caliber as much as possible using 'reasonably close' bullet weights like 115-124gn in 9mm. I've got a bunch of 147gn 9mm that are going to have to be non-standard as 1000 fps with that weight would generate too much pressure I think.

Oremike is of course right about prioritizing practice first but I figure that if I'm making the bullets I might as well try to tune them in as well.

That was kind of my point, as you practice with your different loading's you will develop a base line and preferences. You can then, while practicing, adjust accordingly.