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I'm curious about open-sight accuracy. I know that there are some serious marksmen who can shoot amazingly small groups with specialized sights on benchrest rifles, but I'm curious about the average guy with the average rifle, or at least a fairly regular rifle capable of good accuracy.

I've been into guns for a very long time, and my interests have varied quite a bit through the years. I have rifles in the safe that haven't seen the light of day in years, even decades for some. I've never been a competitor or seriously into any particular discipline. I'm primarily a recreational shooter. I've always been interested in accuracy but have never put in any serious effort into getting really good.

Today I had the old Swiss K31 out. I've owned it for at least 20 years, but have only had it out to the range a few times. I've never fired factory ammo (or surplus) through it, just reloads. I finally got serious and carefully loaded some rounds with top quality bullets, based on a couple manuals and top recommended loads online. I shot several groups at 50 and 100 yards. These 5-shot groups were between 2-3 moa. It's been a very long time since I've fired any iron-sighted rifle capable of precision accuracy, from a bench.

So yes, I can work on my load for accuracy, and I can work on my accuracy and practice, practice, practice. I'm really just curious about what kind of accuracy anyone else gets. I read stories about people who shoot 1moa groups with a K31 with military iron sights. I don't doubt it, but am amazed by that kind of ability, and the level of eyesight I would think is required. I expect I can do better with practice and load development, but I'm not sure just how much better. With standard sights and my average eyesight, I think I'd be very happy with a consistent 2moa. I know some can do that with open-sighted revolvers, but to me that's a near-superhuman feat for someone with incredible discipline and the eyesight of an eagle.

No big deal. I'm not really into extreme accuracy nor am I driven to pursue the very best I can do. It's just a project I'm tinkering with and am curious about what kind of expectations others have with iron sights.
 
@tac can give you some insight into the K31's potential. It is a bit of an anomaly though in that you will be hard-pressed to match the surplus GP-11 ammo for accuracy.
 
Aperture sights front and rear for your K-31 will make a big difference. I can't shoot iron sights anymore either
except if it has a rear aperture sight.
1631961711778.png
Competition shooters shoot a 'iron sight' class they all use
aperture font and rear. Sometimes out to 1000 yards!
600 yard prone match each shooter has a scorer behind them. Note aperture front and rear sights.
Long sight radius.
1631961916576.png
 
Before a few years ago, Service Rifle class shooters used post front / peep rear sights. They can use scopes now.

Using irons, a moderately skilled shooter would have little problem staying inside the ten-ring at the 600 yard line. The more highly skilled stayed in the X-ring consistantly.

When a shot would stray it was more often a missed wind call rather than a sighting error.
 
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At the risk of sparking a debate, "Open Sights" to me means buckhorn and bead. "Iron Sights" to me means any sighting system of two components (front and rear) that does not involve optics. In other words (to me), "Open Sights" is a subset of "Iron Sights". (Aperture and Globe to be another subset.)

Telescopic sights DO NOT affect the accuracy of a rifle in ANY WAY. Again: scopes do NOTHING to affect rifle accuracy.

Telescopic sights merely define the target for the shooter.

IF the target can be entirely defined by the shooter, Iron Sights can easily equal and (to the surprise of many) EXCEED the performance of the same rifle equipped with Optics.

Here we get into, "What constitutes a target"? Aperture and Globe sighting systems (as used in competition) are congruent with a round, black bull; A circle insert in the globe can be chosen to perfectly match the defined image of the black bull (diameter) at the range of the shot, allowing for sight picture and consistency perfection. Given a shooter with good operational vision, this is where "Irons" can (and often do) leave Scopes in the dust. I believe the "secret" is in the length of sighting radius (distance between the front and rear sights: greater distance means more precision).

The wisp of hair behind a deer's shoulder in the region of the heart is less defined. A circle insert in a globe would be detrimental to this work (although a rear aperture of the correct size for field work would be beneficial, and in MANY scenarios, MUCH better than a scope; think Whitetails in a brushy river bottom). Buckhorn and Bead may be even better for that work, and if accuracy means hitting what you intended, Grampa's ol' Thutty-Thutty with his Marble's system easily becomes "more accurate" than your blue-printed , custom barreled bolt action with the 6-18x on top.

Those who have fiddled around with both sighting systems (on the same rifle) find out rather quickly that a telescopic sight really does NOTHING for accuracy, as long as the target can be well-defined by the shooter, and in many common hunting situations the scope becomes a needless handicap one should not be saddled with.

Numerous persons (even with excellent vision) claim, "I can't use a peep sight: I just never have been able to shoot well with one." Without exception, these are shooters with little experience/instruction in their use. Once the concept is demonstrated and practiced, they inevitably find a whole new world they did not realize existed.
 
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I enjoy shooting irons more than optics. However, eyesight plays a huge role in the ability to shoot irons. I recently had laser eye surgery this year, and I'm pleasantly surprised with how much better I've been able to shoot irons. At longer distances I've never really tried putting rounds onto paper, but shooting steel at up to 500-600 yards is much easier now that my eyes have been fixed! I've always enjoyed shooting at distances with irons, it is still something I really enjoy. Knowing my ammos hold overs and such is something I've always considered a skill everyone should know. Kind of like knowing how to drive a manual, it's just a skill that makes you better at shooting in general but it is slowly disappearing.
 
I've never been a competitor or seriously into any particular discipline. I'm primarily a recreational shooter. I've always been interested in accuracy but have never put in any serious effort into getting really good.
This pretty much describes my shooting & gun 'life' as well. I do strive for the best accuracy I can get but I don't get 'fanatical' about it.

This however is one of my best 60 yard group from 26 " Winchester Mod 94 30-30 with a Williams receiver and a Lyman globe front.

IMG_1744.JPG
 
This pretty much describes my shooting & gun 'life' as well. I do strive for the best accuracy I can get but I don't get 'fanatical' about it.

This however is one of my best 60 yard group from 26 " Winchester Mod 94 30-30 with a Williams receiver and a Lyman globe front.

View attachment 1034128
I put Williams aperture sights on all my spring piston rifles.. it makes them awesome.
 
I think the standards of accuracy can be best defined with WW-1 and WW-II era military rifles, especially the Springfield 1903 series with their issue irons, or a couple versions of the M-98 Mauser in 7X57mm! Take a good known 1903 and hand load for it carefully and you would be stunned at just how good those rifles actually are with iron sights!
My Latest 1895 has a Redfield rear sight and post and globe front, and I can shoot sub MOA all day long out to hunting distances off hand,
Pretty much the same with my 03-A3 Sporter!
 
but I'm curious about the average guy with the average rifle, or at least a fairly regular rifle capable of good accuracy.
Average guy here. I've always been a scoped rifle hunter but recently zeroed some MBUS sights on an AR15 at 100yds from a benchrest. A bit low grouping but pleasantly surprised how fun it was to put all shots on 8" target with open sights. Grant its from a benchrest, but that front sight post is the same width of the 8.5" paper width at 100yds so it was cool to land hits aiming for the center. I wont win any marksmanship awards with this grouping but for an average guy its good to know I can hit 8 inches at 100yds I look forward to practicing more. Probably raise the grouping up a tad or maybe zero at 50yds for the typical AR sight in...
20210911_AR15_mbus_100yds.jpg
 
Average guy here. I've always been a scoped rifle hunter but recently zeroed some MBUS sights on an AR15 at 100yds from a benchrest. A bit low grouping but pleasantly surprised how fun it was to put all shots on 8" target with open sights. Grant its from a benchrest, but that front sight post is the same width of the 8.5" paper width at 100yds so it was cool to land hits aiming for the center. I wont win any marksmanship awards with this grouping but for an average guy its good to know I can hit 8 inches at 100yds I look forward to practicing more. Probably raise the grouping up a tad or maybe zero at 50yds for the typical AR sight in...
View attachment 1034302
You could always swap your front sight post to a target style, might surprise ya what a difference that will make!
 
You could always swap your front sight post to a target style, might surprise ya what a difference that will make!
I can imagine target style upgrades would improve my shooting, but would such a post be impractical for general self defense shooting? Im not against the idea but the rifle does have a scope...
 
I can imagine target style upgrades would improve my shooting, but would such a post be impractical for general self defense shooting? Im not against the idea but the rifle does have a scope...
Depends on the up grade! There are many different options out there, so you should be able to find one that works for YOU!
You could also use the "Modified' hold, adjust your front sight post down so that you actually aim by placing the top of the post at the bottom of the bullseye/point of impact you want, that's what I do with the "Fighting" rifle, my AR as the Trigicon Trit front sight post, which is even thicker then a standard, so I set it low to work as I recommended above! With practice, you can get pretty accurate with this setup!
 
There are many different options out there, so you should be able to find one that works for YOU!
this could get interesting, I didnt know the magpul posts could be upgraded. Im still not certain how much open sight shooting I want to do but its good to know there are options. Glad you shared this.
 
I think the standards of accuracy can be best defined with WW-1 and WW-II era military rifles, especially the Springfield 1903 series with their issue irons, or a couple versions of the M-98 Mauser in 7X57mm! Take a good known 1903 and hand load for it carefully and you would be stunned at just how good those rifles actually are with iron sights!
My Latest 1895 has a Redfield rear sight and post and globe front, and I can shoot sub MOA all day long out to hunting distances off hand,
Pretty much the same with my 03-A3 Sporter!
My dearest Uncle hunted all his life with an '03 Springfield (not A3) that he bought at Fred Meyer he said. When his eyes began to fail, I took it to a local Smith along with a beautiful Redfield Target receiver sight. I explained my purpose. The good Smith advised he would reluctantly drill the receiver of this beautiful intact '03 on ONE condition: That when said Uncle had no use for the rifle any longer, I would promise to bring it back and allow the Smith to "fill my holes so nobody ever knows I did this."

My Uncle LOVED the fine improvement, learned the operation of the sight and clicks, and became "the talk of the town" in Vernonia about how he could "spin the dial on the ol' Springfield and hit just about anything across any canyon".

Nature took its course, and his last hunt was with a scoped Kimber .308 I gave him. (His trajectory knowledge transferred right over.)

He handed me "The Ol' Springfield" one day, and said, "Go kill something with it before I die." The result was the Montana State Record Pronghorn for that year.

Story's not over: bear with me. This is 'sposed ta be a story 'bout sights....

My small local gunshop guy handed me a little box one day, and said, "I ran across this and I think you might have a use for it".
New Old Stock Redfield front globe made to drift into the original '03 dovetail and at the proper height for the receiver sight. I am told that this was a popular and legal addition to certain classes of Military/Bull competition.

The gun will shoot 5 touching at 100 yards.

Post Script: Gonna have to add that Smith to my list of broken promises.
 
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I wish I had some GP11 ammo for my K31, but I can't bring myself to pay $2 per round for it.

The trend I think I'm seeing here is that to really bring out the accuracy of a rifle with iron sights, you need some good sights. Like I said before, I think I'll be pretty happy if I can get to where I can hold 2moa consistently, with a K31 with standard military sights. I'm in awe of those who can do better, not necessarily for the accuracy, but for the eyesight. Those who can shoot 1" groups at 50 yards with a revolver and regular iron sights, have my serious respect.

I wonder if using expensive match bullets for this particular application is a waste. Cheaper bullets will probably work just as well.
 

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