OC confrontation

[SoberPoster]

My My Most readers still can't count at all: 6 questions and I had to prod to get ANY answers to just #1;

What about #4: Does anyone know of National/Local groups-lawyers willing and ABLE to defend us once we are forced to open fire on evil people (if you say psycho-nut-cases those criminals are labeled "SICK" to get off scot-free which is an injustice for the EVIL they perform).

I don't want a DUI lawyer defending me in an assault case; can anyone make recommendations; does the NRA or any other big group come to help or are we all alone.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Is there any INSURANCE available for gun carriers???[/COLOR]

MOST NEGITIVE comments to my original post appear to be posted by hate seekers: people unfairly characterizing me as a fearful bigot! Only some nut would OC straight down the sidewalk thru a group of 4 gang-bangers... that's asking to get your gun taken and be another victim on the news. Just like #3 some spend hours nick-picking my questions and making-up issues to attack my personality while AVOIDING THE TOUGH QUESTIONS: sounds a lot like the damnoldhipocrates and O_ba_ma! WHAT RECOVERY???
Most likely those HAVE NO ANSWERS and perhaps are really anti-gun: this minority seeks to stop serious discussions AND turn the forum into a platform for their own egos.


Thanks Docnt for your analyst, Blitkrieg for your statistics and link:
knowledge is help and not to be feared or fought.

 

[Misterbill]

Wow, butthurt much?

Your description:

I was walking down a SE Ave and came
on 4 black youths gathered at a bus stop taking up the whole sidewalk. I took the bike path giving them a wide berth. Unexpectantly one jumps up yelling an attack scream "Ha-hoo-huu"
then the other 3 join in

NOW, after getting suggestions that an indicator of lethal force may consist of something more than a catcall and color of skin, they are gangbangers? What twigged you to that fact? Dress? Presence of colors? Neon signs over their head? What? Or are you now just trying to justify yourself because people suggest you may be over-reacting?

My Most readers still can't count at all: 6 questions and I had to prod to get ANY answers to just #1

There are these things called paragraphs. You might want to look that up.

MOST NEGITIVE comments to my original post appear to be posted by hate seekers: people unfairly characterizing me as a fearful bigot! Only some nut would OC straight down the sidewalk thru a group of 4 gang-bangers... that's asking to get your gun taken and be another victim on the news.

If I was walking down a street and saw 4 young guys who looked sketchy for ANY reason, I would immediately cross the street to put distance between myself and them before I ever got anywhere close. You fail tactics 101 or situational awareness 101, take your pick.

If you're going to OC I hope you have some level of retention on your holster and some level of training on weapon retention. O/C or CC, should make no difference in your reaction.

Either you are just such a horrible writer that you haven't made the situation at all clear, or you're a Mall Ninja.

If it's a good shoot, it's very unlikely you'll need more than a couple of hours of lawyer time. It's gonna cost you a few hundred bucks. I suggest that google is your friend for criminal lawyers in your area or ask people you KNOW, not strangers on an anonymous internet forum.

Getting suddenly startled in the way you initially mentioned might make anyone put their hand on their gun. You'd be on solid legal ground at that point, as has already been mentioned.

It's not the initial questions which triggered this response. It's your irrational (How the Hell did Obama come into this?) and now CONFLICTING account of events which did.

Welcome to the forum. If I want to call you a racist, I'll do so. I won't mince words.

I just think you really suck at armed citizen if you're asking these questions and still claiming to have: "...more training than many"

You clearly missed the training on situational awareness, legal rights and responsibilities, threat assessment and de-escalation, and avoidance techniques. Other than those, you're clearly a genuine "Operator."

 

[Thebastidge]

Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.

 

[billyinfinity]

Yeah I characterized you as a fearful bigot. I personally don't walk around seeing "black youths" hanging out on sidewalks as "gang-bangers", or automatically assume they mean trouble. I did, however say I wasn't there so couldn't fairly judge the situation, but going off the details you provided you come across as such. If it is indeed the case, then it makes me fearful that you're carrying and so jumpy and quick to anger. I hope some poor kid doesn't look at you the wrong way or stupidly say something that's going to make you draw down on them. I support your right to carry, but maybe you should work out some issues first. I re-read this 4 times: "What about #4: Does anyone know of National/Local groups-lawyers willing and ABLE to defend us once we are forced to open fire on evil people (if you say psycho-nut-cases those criminals are labeled "SICK" to get off scot-free which is an injustice for the EVIL they perform)." I still can't make sense of the parenthetical part, but seriously, "...forced to open fire on evil people..."?

You know.. on second thought, maybe you should have a team of defense lawyers on retainer for when you feel you're "forced" to do whatever it is you feel you're going to need to do. I have a feeling if anyone's going to need a solid defense team, it's going to be you.

 

[Thebastidge]

Best Way To Get Attacked?

 

[Thebastidge]

I'm engaged to an African-American woman. I work with and have close friends who are black. I wouldn't walk straight through a group of young black men. My fiancee wouldn't either, in fact she's usually the one who wants to cross the street to avoid them. I wouldn't recommend a black man walk through a group of young white males either. I would walk around a group of young white males as well. A single dog doesn't just barge through a group of other dogs. We're pack/tribe predatory animals and violation of territory or personal spaces is most likely to get you attacked.

The person who described it as the "monkey dance" was exactly right. That kind of group behaviour indicates they're already tightly bonded- they knew each other and had some kind of in-group/out-group issues that *could* have led to violence if the wrong triggers were activated. Random strangers wouldn't have all engaged in the same behaviour at the same time. Whether they were insulted by a white man exhibiting fear/caution or not. In addition, blocking the entire sidewalk is a display of territoriality. An unrelated crowd of people tends to make space when approached.

Billyinfinity, you might want to examine your own motives as well, since you're being pretty aggressive towards somebody who had a fairly legitimate cause for alarm. You should read the link I posted just above this: I think you're engaging in denial- this is not meant as an attack, merely food for thought.

Also, remember, it's the Internet. Text-only communication is easily subject to imputing emotions and intent incorrectly.

 

[billyinfinity]

I did read the link you posted above. I found it interesting.

I still hold to my opinion that, based on the content of the posts, the OP seems a little off and it frightens me that they are carrying. Describing outbursts from individuals as "attack screams" and saying people are "provoking death" seems a little over the top...especially when there is no other mention of any sort of aggression or confrontation other than one of them jumping up and yelling "Ha-hoo-huu". Was that an attack? Were any real words exchanged? Did the youths make any aggressive moves towards the individual? reach for a weapon? reach for the individuals weapon? Nothing said here leads me to believe any differently than that an easily startled, paranoid individual wants to know when it's legal for them to make a show of force, who they can draw on and how many they can shoot. And this person is walking around the city I live in with a gun on their hip reacting to what seem like (from their description, and in my opinion) fairly trivial events and believing that people are provoking death.

I'll concede that perhaps I'm more bold when when it comes to people but I wouldn't have a problem approaching a group of young guys, regardless of race. I never said anything about barging through a group. I did say something respectful or polite like "excuse me, guys" before passing them seems a little more normal than sizing them up and giving them a wide berth. Your post above mentioned not challenging someone and to a group of young males I could see how that could be a challenge of sorts..and likely why they screwed with him/her. To be honest, after re-reading the original post, from the description of events, the guys may have very well just been laughing and very animated. It's quite possible they weren't even paying attention to the OP and that the "confrontation", "bullying", and "provoking death" was all in their head.

 

[Mohawk13]

Great read and well stated....Highly recommend Thebastidges Link...

 

[SoberPoster]

Guess I hit the nail right on the head!

MisterBill has such VENOM in his reply:
Must be a "damnoldhipocrit" and or ego-centric anti-gunner doing his best to discourage real discussion and take over the forum just as predicted.
Likely you are a lawyer or well practiced chactacter-assasin. I will not attempt to compet with you on this forum.

I know I did the right thing, but did not risk my life crossing a 5 lane road watching a suspect group. I seek opinions on tactics and knowledge
Everyone can clearly see what you want.

 

[Darknight]

 

[Norm0931]

 

[ThemGunsThough]

I am a natural hot-head. In my teens, I went through a few anger management courses but it was a spiritual awakening that truly salvaged my life. At times, when kids try to act tough, I always want to jump in knock them all out. However, my wife tells me that I should only consider physical force if physical force starts it. She tells me that if they put one touch on her, myself, or my kids, then I can let "the big green guy" let loose. When you carry a gun, you have to really sustain your self that much more. Enough of that though because i'm sure we already know the responsibilities of being gun owners. Just always be prepared though and dont let the taunting and chanting get to you.

 

[michaels]

Sounds like you were mocked....

That's all, get over it.

To answer your 6 questions, I think the internet is a good place to start, but really, get a hold of a lawyer.

They can give you answers that CAN be construed as legal advice.

 

[SoberPoster]

Question #1 about placing a hand on your gun when startled: Docnt quotes re known gun trainer, lecturer, writer Massad Ayoob that doing so is justifiable in dangerous areas/situations.

DPSST Armed Private Security Professional Student Manual (Refresher Course) states on page 42 "Becoming the Aggressor. What does ORS161.215 mean? --You are NOT justified in using physical force if you provoke a fight, start a fight, or continue a fight when the circumstances do not justify the use of force, or -There is no longer a need to use previously justified force."

There must be the Means+Opportunity+Intent to do Deadly Physical Force (DPF) I believe in many situations placing your hand on your gun could be seen as both provoking a fight and signaling Intent while your gun provides Means and your presence provides Opportunity. Your monkey-dancing threats could claim you're the aggressor: if you handle your gun "Intending" to harm them.

Looks like Oregon Law stops any such preemptive move unless you don't care about jail time.

Sorry; I mislaid that manual earlier.

I am afraid the answer is NO.

 

[Darknight]

163.190¹

Menacing
(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if by word or conduct the person intentionally attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious physical injury.

(2) Menacing is a Class A misdemeanor. [1971 c.743 §95]

 

[Thebastidge]

" I believe in many situations placing your hand on your gun could be seen as both provoking a fight and signaling Intent while your gun provides Means and your presence provides Opportunity. Your monkey-dancing threats could claim you're the aggressor: if you handle your gun "Intending" to harm them.

Looks like Oregon Law stops any such preemptive move unless you don't care about jail time.

Sorry; I mislaid that manual earlier.

I am afraid the answer is NO. "

You're missing the the fact that this is already in response to an act intended to engender fear in the OP. In which case he wouldn't be starting the confrontation, but merely protecting himself. Showing a weapon in response to a reasonable suspicion someone is about to cause you harm isn't brandishing in the illegal sense, or rather, the self-defense aspect of it is an affirmative defense.

It's all about whether you can articulate your reasons in such a way that a reasonable person would have reasonable doubt that you had intent to commit a crime.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

If someone of a different race said "Ha-hoo-huu" to me, I'd definitely shoot em. Gun them guys down. Yup. Anyone who makes fun of me on the street must die. Basic rule. My constitutional right. It's the ONLY way to deal with people like that in that situation. It's not like you can just walk away and laugh and let them and you get on with life and forget about it because you are confident in your own skin. Nope. Gotta confront that stuff. Street-mocking is a capital offense, right? Death penalty applies? And I'm pretty sure any victim gets to carry out the sentence on the spot. That's in the Second Amendment. Might be a footnote, but it's definitely there. I read that on examiner.com, so it's legit.

And sometimes you can tell by the darker skin or slightly foreign look in their eyes that they WANT to make fun of you. Why wait for an actual threat or to be made fun of because you're a stupid looking white guy walking down the street with a pistol on his hip OC? Boom Boom. You'd be the man. Call it preemptive situational proactivity. It's a fantasy you could live over and over while you do 8 to 20. Your woman would definitely wait for you, because she would understand that you were just doing what HAD to be done. I'm pretty sure. Lots of guys would be willing to console her, but nothing would happen. Because of your hero status and all.

BTW, how is "hoo" different from "huu"?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Yeah I characterized you as a fearful bigot. I personally don't walk around seeing "black youths" hanging out on sidewalks as "gang-bangers", or automatically assume they mean trouble. I did, however say I wasn't there so couldn't fairly judge the situation, but going off the details you provided you come across as such. If it is indeed the case, then it makes me fearful that you're carrying and so jumpy and quick to anger. I hope some poor kid doesn't look at you the wrong way or stupidly say something that's going to make you draw down on them. I support your right to carry, but maybe you should work out some issues first. I re-read this 4 times: "What about #4: Does anyone know of National/Local groups-lawyers willing and ABLE to defend us once we are forced to open fire on evil people (if you say psycho-nut-cases those criminals are labeled "SICK" to get off scot-free which is an injustice for the EVIL they perform)." I still can't make sense of the parenthetical part, but seriously, "...forced to open fire on evil people..."?

You know.. on second thought, maybe you should have a team of defense lawyers on retainer for when you feel you're "forced" to do whatever it is you feel you're going to need to do. I have a feeling if anyone's going to need a solid defense team, it's going to be you.

They don't bother me.. seems they get the picture well. But ask my pretty little blonde wife who has had packs of them hit on her constantly (as recently as last week near her office) and she'll tell you what they are like. Fortunately for them she's never had to pull the trigger on her .357 magnum, but she's had to pull the gun a few times

 

[davemata]

Look people in the eye, smile and act like a man...
Black folks are not all "predators".

QFT.

 

[SoberPoster]

Some have demeaned me for my words: "attack scream" not being a great writer I characterized what I experienced: one yelled out a provocative scream leading the other three on to start a "monkey dance" as Misterbill showed. This yell started a provocative/verbal attack therefore my labeling it as an "attack-scream" is accurate since that leader's scream started their monkey-dance.

As Thebastige showed possessing the whole sidewalk was a gang-territorial move. Both acts demonstrated the 4 were acting together as a "gang" and being same age and ethnicity I justifiably believed they were gang want-a-bees or rather gang-bangers.

On another note: I believe years ago Massab Ayoob wrote an excellent article about dangers of rescuing suicidal persons. There he showed such were really Homicidal: akin to the "suicide-by-cop" issue. Everyone who OCs should consider both issues as they also apply to them.